Occupy Wall Street Movement

[Moon]

I do find it interesting that this movement has been ignored by most of the press unless to make fun of the participants. While it is true there are many college students and liberal activists attending, there has been a huge increase of regular working class people showing up. The Tea Party was organized to deal with Washington, and this movement seems to be directed at the people in Wall Street who caused the Great Recession.

I hope this movement does last and takes Congress to task for not doing anything, both Democrats and Republicans. They seem more concerned about their careers and their money bags than about workers and their plight to get an honest paycheck and live the American Dream.

It used to be a person got a job at a company, sent their kids through college with the company's help and retired to a decent pension. Now loyalty is repaid by lay-offs, pensions are being cut or eliminated, and any other perks are completely gone.

It is also interesting that many peoples in Mexico are now starting to organize. They realize they are being taken advantage of by the companies. The corporate powers will move everything to China until they start to unionize (it is starting to happen now), and then move to another poor Asian country after that.

I think this movement and the Tea Party Movement should join forces as both Wall Street and their lackeys in Washington do not care about anything but their own pockets. The talk is now for the tax base to be broadened as about half the people do not pay income tax. These are people on Social Security, minimum wage workers, disability pensions etc. They make less than $20,000 a year for a family of four and single individuals make less than $12,000 a year.

The answer to get a job is: Where? Who is hiring? Where are the manufacturers? In Malaysia, China and other Asian countries. Even fast food places aren't hiring.

I do hope we get some new political parties, or perhaps we should support a few out there now. If one is liberal or progressive, the Green Party is good. If one is conservative the Libertarian Party is another choice. For those middle of the road people, how about the Reform Party? Anything is better than the donkey and the elephant.

[mahalla2]

yes, however this seems like only the tip of the iceberg to me - How long will the American people let Wallstreet run their lives? Until everyone is homeless on the streets, and only banks and corporations have the means/money to survive?

[Sunrisepony]

If they would stop permitting companies to outsource their work to other countries, and penalize them, and actually give tax breaks to those that keep their work and manufacturing domestic. That would be the only way to really increase the job market. But, really...this was pretty much all manufactured to destabilize the world economy. So a new global economy could be instated.

[Moon]

If they would stop permitting companies to outsource their work to other countries, and penalize them, and actually give tax breaks to those that keep their work and manufacturing domestic. That would be the only way to really increase the job market. But, really...this was pretty much all manufactured to destabilize the world economy. So a new global economy could be instated.

I agree with this too. The problem is actually the American People's fault. We love cheap gadgets and the companies know that. They would still make a nice tidy profit if the tablets, LED TVs, computers etc were made here, but they make an even bigger profit by paying some person 30 cents an hour in Malaysia to do the same work.

Since corporations and Wall Street are now considered people and can fund unlimited PACs anonymously, I doubt Congress will do anything to change the system.

They need to pass a law making all campaigns publicly funded like they used to in the past. People would check on their tax forms to allow $2 to fund elections and that worked.

Any contribution would be illegal in this system. And that would be fair for everyone.

[isitmeorwhat?]

And now to top it off the feds have shut down all the Medical Marij. dispencaries nationwide. I am sure there will be more protestors for sure. Ok so let's make it totally illegal and invite more crime in. So it can come down on a broke middleclass population with no job's or money and they'll crack down on them to pay their fat lazy rear ends !" I am not getting my hands dirty and breaking a sweat for a decent days wages. POOF!" I shall then take up law"
I think we should all go back to school and become lawyers and law enforcement officials and eventually politicians. We would all all be afraid to move and it would just be the total outcome of what has been and what is going on now. So c'mon let's all become lawyers and law enforcement and just get it over with for cryin' out loud!
A sign of the times my friends!

[mahalla2]

Seems President Jefferson saw the writing on the wall a very long time ago -

[Mom4truth]

This is a long overdue awakening. Iran calls it American Spring. We've all been good little girls and boys long enough. I've seen this coming for some time. I think we all have. A group I belong to "TheCanaryParty.org, has been working to draw attention to the corporate medicine and pharma's effects on our health. We as a group support OWS. I just hope the OWS can grow and stay strong and not be knocked down. I anticipate a huge march on Washington!

Jefferson may have seen the danger, but we are the ones who have to deal with it.

[Jeff Sheets]

Its all a ruse...create a problem, then when everyone is fed up, offer to solve the problem for a price.
This time the "price" is our freedom. Don't be fooled by this. If we approve "the cure" we will be saddled with the "cost"

I have to ask...why aren't the Occupy Wall Street folks going after DC as well? The bunch in power seem to have caused most of the problems we have by their "selective" enforcement and regulation. Soon we will be presented with the fix to these problems.

[cesarnc]

Seems President Jefferson saw the writing on the wall a very long time ago -

It is Bernanke's conviction that by supporting Wall Street the Fed will be supporting main street. He's an academic. He is an expert on things that happened 80 years ago. And the method he applied in 2008 was exactly what academis believe should be applied in 1929's crash. It means: A good solution, but for the wrong world. We're 80 years older now, helllowww..

And Geithner lacks the "presence" of Hank Paulson former US Treasury Secretary who handled the 2008 crisis by ordering bank's CEOs to bend over on a Sunday morning "here's your room, you will only leave it when you come up with a solution. And, ah.... Asian markets open in 10 hours".

With these two guys running the show, you won't see a solution like "import tax increase" or "direct jobs incentives", sort of "the US goverment will pay you for 6 months to hire now". What? It's "spending without spending" 400 billion in crazy "long term treasuries exchange" and nobody seems to find this weird LOL.

[Moon]

Its all a ruse...create a problem, then when everyone is fed up, offer to solve the problem for a price.
This time the "price" is our freedom. Don't be fooled by this. If we approve "the cure" we will be saddled with the "cost"

I have to ask...why aren't the Occupy Wall Street folks going after DC as well? The bunch in power seem to have caused most of the problems we have by their "selective" enforcement and regulation. Soon we will be presented with the fix to these problems.

Actually, they are going after Washington DC. But the reality is Wall Street controls who gets to go to DC in the elections they control.

The problem is huge, but the maddening thing is Wall Street and DC just don't seem to care about the working class family anymore. People are working more for less pay while the prices of food and other staples continue to rise. I do not know what the solution should be, as nationalization would mean the idiots in DC would be in charge. And that would bring it all back to the people of Wall Street as they control DC.

I do think it is time for some third parties to show up. It is time to have other choices instead of the usual Democrats and Republicans who love that Wall Street cash.

[Foxlike Mulder]

It will be interesting to see if there is any escalated violence this weekend when Mayor Bloomberg initiates the "eviction" of OWS. From what I have read (MSM too), he is fed up with it and in my opinion, any effort on his part to use force could backfire in a huge way...especially with his ties to the "financial system."

There has been much said about the lack of detail in what this demonstration is looking to accomplish. I kind of agree, but also understand the complete and utter frustration with everything that is wrong in this country. I do believe we should start with the money first as with almost everything else...go to the money trail to sort out the problems. There is a great book called the "People's History of the United States" in which author Howard Zinn explains how money, corruption & greed has led us into most of the problems we incurred (long ago) and now face today. He also postulates that most of the civil unrest in this country (dating back 200+ years) has been because of the great disparity in the distribution of wealth. So all told, going to Wall Street, where all the greed seems to emanate from, seems like a good place to start. But it shouldn't stop there...the government, our government, is running wild. Public spending is off the hook as there is no accountability for budget controls. There has been an expansion of the Police State as the Patriot Act is becoming more and more restrictive of our "freedoms". And, as it pertains to the community here, why all the secrecy about UFOs? This is perhaps the greatest held secret in the history of mankind, yet our government not only wants to keep under its hat, it also wants to dispel any notion of the reality with lies and disinformation. This government is not Obama, nor our Congress (as a whole)...it is certain factions of the military and the CIA...they truly hold the power (just with weapons and information alone). We need to figure out how we can get it back.

As for OWS, I like the idea of massive public boycotts...speak with your wallet. I have already started the process of taking all my assets out of the banking industry and putting them into credit unions. For those of you who don't know about credit unions, they are a form of your community banks. They are stable and were created to support your local community...and they are not hog-tied to the big banks of Wall Street. Why more people don't use credit unions is probably due to lack of understanding about them (or their existence), so let's get the word out.

"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"
---Howard Beale

[Moon]

The quote from Howard Beale in the masterpiece Network should be the anthem to this movement.

It is also interesting how many in the media are complaining the movement is not focused. OWS is about jobs and providing for families which is getting more difficult to do every year. Wall Street executives have earned billions of dollars in bonuses while the working class are always asked to give up hard fought benefits and pay cuts to take their fair share of the burden. Even after giving up pay and benefits, millions of people face layoffs and less hours.

I would also like to see how Bloomberg makes the group go away. This could backfire big time for the man who had the law changed so he could run a third time for mayor.

[Pons Asinorum]

Odd is it not, the way the movement began -- protesters creating a largess of unsanitary living conditions, hundreds of arrests, disregard for private property, some minor violence, some mob actions, a lot of marijuana and a little bit of heroin, no distinct message...

And yet we are told that they just popped-up spontaneously on a national stage, across a few cities.

--

The movement is about socialism, but most of them do not even know it and of those that do, most of them do not understand it.

They want prosperity, fairness, and security for everyone -- no doubt those are their intentions.

Ironic that if this movement carried the day, it would accomplish exactly the opposite.

Like pawns on a chessboard, they have been completely manipulated.

--

Soon we will be told that capitalism is morally wrong and is the root of all of our "problems" -- which will be listed. Then a series of "solutions" will be proposed.

(It always begins in the Same Way)

--

My two-bits:

Socialism vs Capitalism

* security vs struggle
* take vs earn
* safety vs risk
* Slave vs Free

Speaking for myself: I'll take the struggle. I will earn what I receive. I choose to risk so that I might prosper; and if I fail, so be it -- I choose to be Free.

I choose to be Free. I would rather know the mud and dirt of Freedom than know the master's cozy house.

They may keep their "solutions," which they will present shortly.

[Foxlike Mulder]

The OWS movement had a rallying cry on the alt news sites for many weeks, if not a couple months. I would agree there is some manipulating from both sides of the fence with the pawns in this game. And I also agree many do not realize how they're being used, or will be used in the coming weeks and months. What I am almost certain of is the possibility of violence in the near future when it comes to quelling this storm on the horizon. Look to the Middle East, London and France who all started out similarly. Although it's not the same thing, also look to Vancouver a few months ago...gatherings of hundreds and possibly thousands of disenfranchised youth is a recipe for trouble. In the end, I don't blame the regular "young Joe" who is out there...if I didn't have a family to support, I would be there with them.

I also agree there is an element of socialism creeping into the mix. I, for one, don't think it's a bad thing, but I am not sure full out Socialism is the solution either...and neither is Capitalism. I believe we need elements of both, and even a few new ideas. Clearly what we have now is not working...and truly hasn't for any given long period of time. And when combined with our (US) penchant for finding ourselves in the middle of war every 10-20 years, one could wonder if we just might be able to find a better way. It seems between war and financial crisis, the country is always staving off something (please look at our history)? What? The inevitable collapse?

I'll present one example of a large organization that works, and works well without any true leader. I am a member of Alcoholics Anonymous...have been for over 21 years (sober the whole time). This organization has a tradition to abstain from controversy and the press, so I will try not to step on any toes. But here's the point: this organization has existed for 75+ years, and continues to grow with no leader or mandate to do anything (but try to stop drinking). The organization has thousands of meetings worldwide with millions of members attending every day. And with the guidelines that were suggested by the founders, people truly change their lives for the better. You can describe it many different ways, but it's kind of like mass group therapy on a local level. Again, there are guidelines, but no installed leaders; just volunteers who lead for the meeting, one day at a time. And then people prosper. There are arguments that it doesn't work for everyone, or that it's a cult. Well, if you don't follow some of the suggestions (like don't drink), it won't work. But it's not a cult...there is no leader driving us down a certain path. It is a group collectively looking out for the individual as well as the group as a whole (local and worldwide). There is more I could say, but I really want to drive home a point: millions of lives have changed for the better because an organization exists with a plan to help, but there are no real rules or leaders to force action...it's all done with voluntary support in the belief that the collective group will help the individual, and then the individual will help the group. This concept could work on a grander scale.

[Pons Asinorum]

Clearly what we have now is not working...and truly hasn't for any given long period of time. And when combined with our (US) penchant for finding ourselves in the middle of war every 10-20 years, one could wonder if we just might be able to find a better way. It seems between war and financial crisis, the country is always staving off something (please look at our history)?

That is it exactly FLM -- the problem is <fill in the blank> war, poverty, debt, or all of the above. The solution is <this name changes over the ages, but today is known as> socialism (not much, just a touch because you know, individuals in power are quite trustworthy at limiting their power ).

Despite the fact that socialism will not solve these problems, despite the fact that it will exasperate them (as we know from World History), despite the fact that the cause of so many of these problems is not even related to the offered "solution" -- socialism will now be sold in whatever label is most fashionable ("fairness" bureaus, planning commissions, security agencies). Furthermore we will be told that it is for our own good.

It always begins in the Same Way.

But let us leave that for a moment and follow the excellent advice of looking at our own history:



--



Why did our country form, what produced the greatest prosperity for its common citizens by a margin so large there has never been a precedent? A quick example of the power of this engine: We started with the technology of agriculture that was largely unchanged for 2,000 years and we went to the Moon in less than 200 years. Farmers and the sons of farmers.

Prior to our Founding, some have forgotten how horrid the world was for a common person. Life was cheap, a human being meant nothing unless such a life was born in the house of a noble.

Even the democracy of the Ancient Greeks was only granted to a small percentage to its people.

The pharaoh, the king, the emperor, the thug -- we lived at their mercy. They could take whatever they wanted: our wheat, cattle, wives, daughters, sons. There was no such thing as private property.

We lived at the mercy of the Master. His dogs were better cared for with our own labor and resources that might otherwise have been used to care for our own families. With the same concern he might have for a sneeze, he could order the slaughter of an entire village.

All of that changed (the world Changed) when some common people decided to do something uncommon. They found themselves in a situation where they needed to craft a new government. They examined the prior 5,000 years of history and decided to do something different.

They unleashed Liberty.

Not perfect, but the framework was set and nothing could stop it --not a king, not the institution of slavery, not the Nazis, not the communists. Every person is now free to exercise his or her endowed Rights. (Well, something could stop it -- it is called "free" stuff, but we will get to that later.)

And with that, We harnessed the Renascence; each human being was now allowed to create, develop, improve; to try, to fail, to succeed. There was no such thing as being confined by birth to one's station; that concept became meaningless, but only in the United States (today, the world flirts with this new American concept).

The term "making money" is an American term, we created that term. It meant that we could create our own wealth -- through our own labor, creatively, and sweat -- and keep what we earn.

Some will acquire great wealth and some will not. It has always been that way. But under the American system, we are all free to try and that has created more prosperity for more people than any other form of government/economic system ever devised.

So why would some rather than go back to the old systems that we know do not work, rather than fix what we have (create a genuine solution)? It is a story as old as Power.

Let us leave that for a moment and remember something:



--



There was a time when wars were measured by the millions of dead -- just on the whim of a king or unaccountable minister. Hunger, disease, poverty -- look and remember all the problems that we dared to solve or tackle, and often at great success.

In many ways we have been so successful we cannot understand why things are so imperfect; we are spoiled by our own legacy -- no longer vigilant or sharp or hungry. Like the hunter that buys his food at the grocery store, we grow fat and our eyesight begins to dull, our memories wane -- our brains turn to mush, we only know how to complain.

We have been separated from the Field for to long. Well, that separation is now dissolving and many are running scared. The Master has always been watching us, and like a wolf He senses the fear. He sees His opportunity, dresses in a suit and tie...


People are conquered not by the sword, but by giving them stuff for free. You eliminate their ability to earn by giving them "free" stuff. Do that and you own them. They will vote for you always, fight for you, even die for you.


There is a guy in a suit and tie at the door offering to give us "free" stuff (food, medicine, houses, happiness...). Me? No thanks, I'm gonna go roll up my sleeves, and earn my way.


--



Re: AA


AA is dependent on the morality of human beings, so is the Constitution. Neither work without that premise.

When a people come together freely and voluntarily, for a single focused purpose, to improve and better their lives; with clear, simple practical principles -- well I agree, it is a much superior system than a government mandated organization that regulates and can even enforce an individual's behavior.

A person in charitable-need has two choices:

* the mercy of a bureaucracy


or

* the mercy of his fellow citizens.

It is worth noting that AA is not a government agency, it is a private concern of fellow citizens.

There is more I could say, but I really want to drive home a point: millions of lives have changed for the better because an organization exists with a plan to help, but there are no real rules or leaders to force action...it's all done with voluntary support in the belief that the collective group will help the individual, and then the individual will help the group. This concept could work on a grander scale.

I could not agree more.



--



EDIT:


Speaking of human beings acting morally, we have this lovely act from the OWs movement:

The Coast Guard in Boston confirmed that a woman in uniform was harassed and spat upon near Occupy Boston protesters.

The woman was walking to the train and said protesters spit on her twice, called her foul names and even threw a water bottle at her.

http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/occupy-boston-protesters-spit-on-coast-guard-member-20111013#ixzz1ajJCn8zd

Be careful FLM, this group...something is amiss here. Decent people who want to change the world for the better just don't act this way.

In a free country, an organization can protest and work for change within that country's framework, rather than resort to the violent behavior of a thug. They welcome people of differing opinions and use the ideas of the movement to convince people, rather than spitting on them.

[mahalla2]

Unfortunately, common sense might not prevail in this mess - Too many people are ending up on the street (literally) because they have lost everything to the big-time players (which equates to business as usual to some), and America as a whole seems to be getting angry -

[Gizmo]

today there will movements to occupy cities in 87 different countries to protest against the world crysis

http://www.occupystream.com/ can choose different places
and
http://globalrevolution.tv/ global stream

RT News live stream https://rt.com/on-air/global-change-occupy-day-live/

[mahalla2]

Here is another recent article about the "Occupy Wall Street Movement"

http://start.toshiba.com/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9QC9LPO0%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=931&page=1

[Moon]

What they are missing are the interviews of the working class people who want the return of good paying manufacturing jobs. This is what the movement needs to focus on, but the news networks loves the hippies and topless women out there in the protest lines.

[Foxlike Mulder]

Speaking of human beings acting morally, we have this lovely act from the OWs movement:

The Coast Guard in Boston confirmed that a woman in uniform was harassed and spat upon near Occupy Boston protesters.

The woman was walking to the train and said protesters spit on her twice, called her foul names and even threw a water bottle at her.

http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/occupy-boston-protesters-spit-on-coast-guard-member-20111013#ixzz1ajJCn8zd
Be careful FLM, this group...something is amiss here. Decent people who want to change the world for the better just don't act this way.
In a free country, an organization can protest and work for change within that country's framework, rather than resort to the violent behavior of a thug. They welcome people of differing opinions and use the ideas of the movement to convince people, rather than spitting on them.

The mainstream media always wants something salacious for ratings and in some cases "spin". I have learned to take whatever comes out of CNN and FOX with a grain of salt; same goes for the NYT and WSJ. As stated before, I am pretty sure this will get ugly. And I'm not sure the ugliness will come from those who have an honest and meaningful message in their "occupation". As sure as I know there is a message to be delivered, I know there are miscreants among the masses who will do anything in the name of fun, anarchy, or just plain stupidity. And in that behavior, the message will be distorted and possibly discarded. Here is another example: Michael Moore...this is a guy who actually has an important message (or two). But his delivery and behavior often gets the attention, and therefore the message gets overlooked. I am afraid this will get explosive soon and the message from the "occupation" will become more about the behavior and less about the reasons why people (everywhere) are upset with our country's financial system and the government which is supposed to have oversight for it.

As for the movement in general, whether it's socialism or not, we need to listen to the people. And we the people (all the people) need to speak up as well. There is too much going wrong in this country (and the world), and to let "the others" work it out is just not working for us. Whereas I agree that for many, it is better to pick yourself up by the bootstraps and find a solution for yourself, in this instance, I am certain we need to pool together for a solution. We have become a society/culture that is too focused on the individual; as a result, it feeds into the frailties of human nature (such as envy, greed and apathy)...these frailties are part of the nucleus of the vicious cycle in which we are now imprisoned and for which I see no easy escape...unless of course we can band together as one, for the benefit of all. The current system is the best we have seen, and the best in human history as far as we can tell. Yet the system, like all systems (or empires) has run it's course. The confluences of many factors has led us to a point of no return...there will be more social unrest and there will be casualties (perhaps many). For the life of me, when times were getting worse many years ago, why no one had a "real plan for the future" is beyond me. We needed a 20 year + plan to bring us back to stability, but our leaders were short-sighted (and for what reason?)...I think it's too late now. I think we're headed for a Police State, some say we're already there.

[Pons Asinorum]

FLM, your writing is rational, competent and intelligent. There are many (many) things that you have written that I totally agree with (and of course, not so much ).

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and allowing me this opportunity to better formulate my own.

The current system is the best we have seen, and the best in human history as far as we can tell.

FLM: Careful, talk like that will soon be illegal. Currently, it is frowned upon, and only the worst our system has produced is allowed for proper discussion (can't let the truth out, you know).

Whereas I agree that for many, it is better to pick yourself up by the bootstraps and find a solution for yourself, in this instance, I am certain we need to pool together for a solution.

I agree FLM, but that is not what this movement is about; this movement is about division, victimism, and their natural vehicle: socialism. There is no listening, only shouting (which is evident).

We have become a society/culture that is too focused on the individual; as a result, it feeds into the frailties of human nature (such as envy, greed and apathy)...these frailties are part of the nucleus of the vicious cycle in which we are now imprisoned and for which I see no easy escape...unless of course we can band together as one, for the benefit of all.

Brick vs stone.

The collective society has been tried thousands of times in different guises and modes. Always it fails. We know this from history. It takes the worst in human nature and magnifies it (like envy, greed and apathy), while mitigating and diluting the best of our nature (like creatively, charity, honor).

Alternatively, with a society of (united) individuals, those negative characteristics are mitigated and diluted in a greater body of people, while the best characteristics of human nature are amplified (that is why our Constitution is predicated on a moral people, as mentioned previously).

What made our Founding different was precisely that focus on the individual. For the first time in history, failure or success became a political Right of a human being. It unleashed a wave of prosperity that was unheralded.

BTW: Right to failure or success -- Take away one, you take away the other.

We are victims of our own success (spoiled for sure, and increasingly ignorant of history).

--

There are great books that serve as warnings from the past, authored by people who experienced and lived through this collectivism in its many forms: Animal Farm, Atlas Shrugged, 1984, and One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich. These great works are wisdom that we ought to heed.

Oh, and add the Declaration of Independence (the actual one, not the censored version currently going around). It is quite explicit about one's Right to Liberty and why.

--

The collective, king, ruler, council, board -- whatever you like to call Central Power -- its thirst for Power is unquenchable.

It is foolish to think that some grand commission or bureau (or whatever guise it chooses) -- that is charged with the power to distribute wealth -- will solve the problems of today.

We have done this thousands of times in our history and always it is the same result. Instead, let us go with what we know works -- an imperfect system (there are no perfect systems) but one that can be improved by increasing Freedom and protecting Liberty rather than doing the opposite.

Power seeks to enrich itself and men cannot resist it.

Geez, hasn't anyone seen Lord of the Rings?

[mahalla2]

hmmmm - something tells me this whole thing will lead to a scenario more like "Lord of the Flies"

[Foxlike Mulder]

I can relate to both Lord of the Flies and Rings. I was also just talking today about Orwell's vision of the future and the idea it's kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

Pons, I am going to look into Objectivism a bit more as this is a newer concept for me, just introduced by an old friend. I would also like to clarify that I am not a supporter of some central authority to dispense wealth or any other well fare to the general population. I think the less we have in centralized authority, the better. But that's not the direction we're headed.

I 'd like to pose the question: where are we headed as a civilization if we continue down the Capitalism road? If we (AAT followers) are to believe there are visitors coming to this earth on a regular basis (and have been for thousands of years), I can't imagine they have advanced to this point with a foundation based in Capitalism. There has to be a higher purpose and that is where I would like to see some answers...from my perspective, the human race (as a whole) does not seem to be focused on advancing the species. Again, as a whole, it seems we (humans) are focused on very short term goals that mostly satisfy the individual while doing little to advance the species (and it's home planet). Somewhere in the evolutionary cycle we have overdeveloped the ego and dulled our collective conscious which I believe protects the species. If one looks at other social creatures on this planet, we see great examples of the collective conscious (birds/ants/fish)...and we have the intellectual capacity to do far more with our gifts, yet where is it leading us? Without a better understood and universally accepted (human species) mandate, I believe any political/social movement is doomed for more of the same.

[Don Morace]

Hi Folks,Don here.There is nothing wrong with true Capitalism,it is what had made this country great and most powerful but there is no longer true capitalism,it is now CORPORITISM.We used to have monopoly laws that prevented(Monopolies)corporitism,the American dream was taken away from us 50 years ago!!Our government has allowed big corporations to consolidate into huge corporate conglomerates that control just about every facet of our lives from the cost of food(comodities market),to the availability of jobs(huge outsourceing of labor and allowing illegals to take up the menial jobs).Without a PHD in some highly sophisticated resource the minimally educated person has no chance of survival,you can't even start your own small business and succeed with all the beauracracy that you have to overcome.Then if you can get past the BS.you can't get good help( try finding a good machinist now -a- days or someone who can weld)!Every thing that has happened in this country has happened because the powers that be wanted it to happen(Hegelian Dialectic)!The great American experiment that our fore fathers initiated 235 years ago is being torn asunder by the greedy egocentrics that our civilization has brought about,another fall of the Roman Empire.Don out.........................

[Pons Asinorum]

Pons, I am going to look into Objectivism a bit more as this is a newer concept for me, just introduced by an old friend.

FLM, that you recognized it tells me many things -- all impressive. I am getting the feeling I am way out of my league.

You seek knowledge -- unusual for a political blog, in fact, I have not ever seen that before now.

That must have been an awesome conversation.

Please let me know what you discover, as I would value your opinion.

I would also like to clarify that I am not a supporter of some central authority to dispense wealth or any other well fare to the general population. I think the less we have in centralized authority, the better.

So stipulated FLM. Kind of figured that anyway, you are a thoughtful and smart person -- it comes out in your writing -- and as such, there is no way one could one can hold such a belief (intellectualism does not always equate as smart; does not exclude it, but does not equal it either).

Also, please know that I admire and agree with much of objectivism, but it also leaves much to be desired (no human being can thrive without the help of another from time to time -- I do believe in moral duty, but am having great difficulty in defining a rational balance between that and objectivism).

But that's not the direction we're headed.

Totally agree.

I 'd like to pose the question: where are we headed as a civilization if we continue down the Capitalism road?

That may be the most intelligent question I have ever heard raised in a political thread; especially in the context you presented. The more I tried to answer it, the harder it became.

I'll need a few days with this one . Probably will not be able to render an answer, but will try.

For now, I will leave it as a series of related sub-questions: what form of economics would an alien species have (assuming a social animal like ourselves)? If not capitalism, then what? What if an alien species did have capitalism, would its form be like our free market form? What if an advanced alien species believed in God? Is morality a universal trait (leaving aside a formal definition of morality)?

Yeah, a few days at least...wow, FLM: Really good observations, questions and points. My head is starting to hurt

--

We used to have monopoly laws that prevented(Monopolies)corporitism,the American dream was taken away from us 50 years ago!!Our government has allowed big corporations to consolidate into huge corporate conglomerates that control just about every facet of our lives from the cost of food(comodities market),to the availability of jobs(huge outsourceing of labor and allowing illegals to take up the menial jobs).

Yes, I think this is largely true Don. Also the concept of private property has recently been rendered all but non-existent, thanks to a Supreme Court ruling a few years ago. A corporation or any large concern with large capital resources can take anyone's property, with assistance from law enforcement.

And the Fed (our first real experiment with socialism), talk about monopolies -- that should be rebooted too, more in a capitalistic mode than its current socialist model.

I could go on...

--

Unrelated to the above, my observation about the OW movement, addressed to no one, just my two cents:

What follows is a comparison of behavior between two current political movements.

In one, there is theft of food and computer devices, thousands of arrests, spitting on a Coast Guard woman in uniform, and anti-Semitic speeches that are cheered by thousands; worst, a woman raped within the OW movement by a fellow protester.

Compare this to a different, concurrent political movement, which has even more followers. It has permits to protest and hold rallies, and when done, it left the venue areas on schedule and quite clean. It had ZERO arrests, ZERO rapes, ZERO reported thefts, did not tolerate or allow racist speeches, did not spit on anyone in uniform -- but mostly DID effect change in a big way, on our most recent congressional elections.

The OW movement is hollow. A coordinated effort where a useful few were told to march and were subsequently joined by many who are genuinely angry, but do not now how to effect change. It is an expression of righteous anger and frustration of fellow citizens who do not know what to do and are losing hope -- they are slowing giving in to fear. IMO, they are being played and an attempt to harness their fear, anger, and frustration will soon reveal itself. They will be asked to Divide the nation.

Rather than play in the ruins of Division, perhpas consideration ought to be given to the house of Unity; the one saved and rebuilt by Lincoln. Rather than devote energy and effort to destroying that house, perhaps we ought to look toward his example and work together to save it instead (again).

[Moon]

Retirement Heist: How Companies Plunder and Profit from the Nest Eggs of American Workers by Ellen Schultz is one book worth looking into about what Wall Street has done to the pensions of America. Not a very pretty story as the ones who lose are the regular workers.

[Foxlike Mulder]

I'm having trouble navigating how to place replies to previously quoted items, so here's just a bucketed response:

Pons, on the contrary, I am pretty sure I am out of my league. I do seek answers, but I'm still forming many of the questions.

Balance is always difficult, especially when mixed with the chaos of today's world. I personally believe that chaos has caused man to lose some of his innate abilities to "commune" with his fellow man. I am a big believer in collective consciousness (and unconscious); for these reasons, I have a hard time with the paradox of individualism versus the natural social connection we all share.

So many possibilities, and in my opinion, probabilities of different levels of evolution/development. I certainly envision other worlds with commerce and competition (as some worlds have and some have not), but I'm not so sure on the capitalist aspect of it. Profiting to me is more of an individual goal, not a communal one. As such, are those worlds more driven by the individual (as I would argue ours is), or the community? I would imagine, the closer to God, or the Creator, the more communal that society would be, as I believe selfishness is a trait leading away from God/Creator. But here's another perspective...I have read of theories that there is no Good v Evil, but just Ying v Yang...is this just individual first v community first? By the way, I don't want to declare that individualism is wrong or bad...God/Creator wouldn't have made us all different if there wasn't supposed to be an individual. I should also say, I am attracted to Buddhist concepts, so I definitely have internal conflict over individual v community. Of course, there is a difference between individualism and selfishness (yet again, does individualism lead to selfishness due to our human frailties?) And does the answer lie in balance? I also think there is a connection with morality, for that is one of the key concepts I feel is embedded in our collective consciousness (and unconscious).

I have not seen a period in my life when our country was so divided. I do hope we can find some leadership, like a Lincoln, who can find the common ground to bring us back together. As long as that common ground isn't a defense against terrorism, leading us into more conflict abroad.

[Moon]

How about something tangible to this Wall Street movement?

My Mother has lost over $700K in her retirement portfolio since this meltdown. This was money my Dad worked hard for and passed away from cancer early in life. The money was there so Mom could live comfortably and have enough to cover any medical costs for long term care. This is something that adds a personal side to one of the reasons people are mad at Wall Street.

Many people saw their 401Ks disappear over night because the investors at Wall Street had a party with the money. They got their commissions, so they are all doing great.

There are no more pensions available from private companies like they used to have. They have been replaced with the very risky 401K and other schemes. People thought they would have some money to enjoy life after they retired, but are finding it all gone.

Some people now depend on Social Security as they have lost everything else.

I don't want a communist system to take over, but smart capitalism with some socialism thrown in to protect and regulate people from greedy Wall Street investors who have nothing to lose over other people's money.

[Inquiring Mind]

David Icke--Essential knowledge for a Wall street protester:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV9A2IGShuk&feature=feedf

[mahalla2]

Here is a link to an article I read this morning from a San Francisco news paper - Really sad our major cities are becoming brutal police states with little or no consideration for their citizens (protestors or not). Doesn't seem to me that any of this is heading in a good direction -

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/27/BAD61LN3LM.DTL

[Jeff Sheets]

Yeah, somebody else said it above...Lord of the flies. The occupy movement should be directed at the White House and US Congress, not Wall st. The only folks who will get what they want over this occupy movement are the politicians who will milk it for all they can get. while they cheer on the occupiers.

Example: one of the demands of the Wall st occupiers is that Student loans be forgiven and that a college education become a right.
Ergo: POTUS Obama signs executive order to change the terms of the federally subsidized student loan program. basically saving each graduate about $10 a month but no more. Is that how they buy our votes?

[mahalla2]

Yeah, somebody else said it above...Lord of the flies. The occupy movement should be directed at the White House and US Congress, not Wall st. The only folks who will get what they want over this occupy movement are the politicians who will milk it for all they can get. while they cheer on the occupiers.

Example: one of the demands of the Wall st occupiers is that Student loans be forgiven and that a college education become a right.
Ergo: POTUS Obama signs executive order to change the terms of the federally subsidized student loan program. basically saving each graduate about $10 a month but no more. Is that how they buy our votes?

I think there is so much tied into all this that to say the protests should be directed here or there is futile because people will just end up beating each other to death instead of directing their attention to where the problem really exists, and that is with the controlling big world banks/corporations and a few very wealthy individuals that are pulling their puppet strings.

[Foxlike Mulder]

If you're dissatisfied, then you need to find your outlet for expression. Not everyone wants to Occupy Wall Street or their own local town hall, but they (we?) need to find something. I too can relate to Max's story about his Mother; I lost a small fortune with Wall Street banking and corporate fraud. My life was (is) changed forever and while I just learned to accept it and move on, I don't have to keep quiet about it. I was screwed (more than once actually) and I am one of millions...millions of Americans who have just gotten the shaft from some ill-begotten combination of bad Wall Street behavior, corporate greed and extremely poor government oversight. Find your voice. I moved my money out of the mainstream (BoA and Capital One) and into two credit unions and I haven't purchased a public stock in 3.5 years. There was a great boycott a few years ago: a one day, "don't buy gas" boycott...that kind of behavior definitely disrupts the system (I speak from experience). By the way, did anyone see Exxon's 40% increase in profit to $10.3 billion for the quarter!?! I have said this from the beginning, I don't see the OWS movement ending well, especially if there aren't more people who will find their own way to express dissatisfaction with "the system". And we desparately need leadership to step in to provide a paradigm shift from the old way we've done business.

[Pons Asinorum]

I 'd like to pose the question: where are we headed as a civilization if we continue down the Capitalism road?

FLM, your larger point is well made (you having been thinking about this for some time) and your observations are (IMO) incredibly valid. Here is my viewpoint to add to the mix. In the end, I have no idea where we as a species, as a country, or even as a generation are headed, but I just hope it is a good place with excellent fly fishing .

FWIW:

We stand on the edge of extinction by our own hand. We are an all or nothing species: that is, our existence is dependent on our risking of it.

It has been that way since our first ancestor discovered how to make fire; there is no turning back to the safety and comfort of the cave. We either make it to the stars or we burn bright, but quick, and by our own hand.

To date, our progress has led us to capitalism and it is our country that currently and temporarily holds the baton. Capitalism is one of many markers of progress on the long journey that our species is taking. To date, it is by far the best solution to national economic issues ever found.

Rewarding risk with something that society values (money) does unleash creative energies and reduces poverty, but when mixed with our primitive instincts, it is fraught with imperfections.

The end of capitalism does not mean the end of the free market, but perhaps the end of money. That is, society may value something else (like information aka Star Trek), but preserve the free market.

Whatever form the next epoch takes, it will necessitate progress in morality. Just as the genocides of the world are now much less tolerated (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc), just as individual rights are increasingly being viewed as fundamental, our morality progresses too. And it must continue, because if it does not, our economic problems of today will become meaningless as technology advances: Consider that at one time, few people knew about gunpowder. Today everyone has access to this knowledge. Now apply that analogy to, say, nuclear weapons.

In many ways, our species has only been a half a step ahead of our own destruction (Genghis Khan, WWII, Cold War...history is replete with examples). That half-step is not measured in technology or even intelligence, but in morality.

As a species, we will either progress morally, and therefore economically and socially; or we will go extinct by our own hand.

We now know the right road (Liberty as opposed to Tyranny, Opportunity for all as opposed to Wealth for a few), but we are still learning how to make it happen. We are getting it -- in just over two hundred years we have overthrown a king, ended slavery via a civil war, gone though economic depressions, fought world wars, ended a cold war based on MAD, and for grins, sent some men to the Moon.

But...

We have made many mistakes (and will make many more) and there are always those that seek unfair advantage against their fellow human beings.

We have a long ways to go, and we are still just a half a step away from the edge; I think it is gonna be close.

So many possibilities, and in my opinion, probabilities of different levels of evolution/development.

Totally agree. You have offered much to expand on FLM

I have not seen a period in my life when our country was so divided.

Me too, but there were worst times in our history. The Civil War for instance.

From the beginning of our country, we have been a divided people on so many things, it is truly a wonder we formed at all: From the 3/5th's compromise to the Federalists Papers...all way before the Civil War.

I think maybe that is our dynamic. Just as stress and pounding turns iron into steel, maybe that is the fabric of true self-governance and perhaps the source of its strength. Difficult to obtain, but strong as hell once achieved.

Dunno.

[Moon]

Yeah, somebody else said it above...Lord of the flies. The occupy movement should be directed at the White House and US Congress, not Wall st. The only folks who will get what they want over this occupy movement are the politicians who will milk it for all they can get. while they cheer on the occupiers.

Example: one of the demands of the Wall st occupiers is that Student loans be forgiven and that a college education become a right.
Ergo: POTUS Obama signs executive order to change the terms of the federally subsidized student loan program. basically saving each graduate about $10 a month but no more. Is that how they buy our votes?

If Wall Street didn't gamble away people's pensions and 401Ks, I would totally agree with that. However, they got away with crimes of fraud that some people spend ten or more years in prison for. The US Congress and the White House both know where their bread and butter come from so they treat Wall Street with kid gloves. I just don't understand how the chief management of the banks can give themselves billions of dollars in bonuses while so many hundreds of thousands of people have lost their entire savings.

As far as higher education, I think students should look at going to their state universities instead of trying to go to some of these outrageously priced private schools.