Does the past exist yet?

[Hawklady]

Very interesting article link on the LT home page today. I find it astounding that our actions in the future could change our past. Comments?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-lanza/does-the-past-exist-yet-e_b_683103.html

[Ace Rimmer]

Very interesting article link on the LT home page today. I find it astounding that our actions in the future could change our past. Comments?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-lanza/does-the-past-exist-yet-e_b_683103.html

Well I read that. Call me a big dense dummy, but it makes not a lot of sense to me. I can't understand, I mean me personally, I can't grasp the concept that something I do now can change something that has already happened.

Most of the time I think there is just now, there is no past and there is no future, there is just this moment in time.

[Csabi_B]

Forging history changes the past for sure. As the memories of the past affect the present, false memories also effect the present. Past only exists in memories and future only exists in plans.

[Zagrefez]

In human mind, like Csabi said it's so. But universal future or past debends from time and we are not sure how time behaves and what it really is. Anyway, some theories are that past, now and future always exist, every second is here, it doesn't disappear anywhere never. Different thing is that does our things change something in past? We are in this dimension and frequency rate, where time seem to be our key element, like water for fishes. I think anyway that our moves changes our past, but does that exist in our dimension anymore?

[mahalla2]

Very interesting article link on the LT home page today. I find it astounding that our actions in the future could change our past. Comments?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-lanza/does-the-past-exist-yet-e_b_683103.html

This section of text neatly sums things up to me and states as follows:

"Like the light from Wheeler's quasar, historical events such as who killed JFK, might also depend on events that haven't occurred yet. There's enough uncertainty that it could be one person in one set of circumstances, or another person in another. Although JFK was assassinated, you only possess fragments of information about the event. But as you investigate, you collapse more and more reality."

In other words, we can not change the past but rather our understanding of the information connected to a past event, etc. based upon revised information that reveals the actual truth of the matter.

[Cammi2012]

I change the past all the time! I just tell myself,

"No- you didnt just eat that 4th piece of cake!"

lol- just kidding.

[cesarnc]

Quantum mechanics has these wierd things.

For more wierd things, read Brian Green's The Fabric of the Cosmos.

[Buzi-Blu]

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle with collapsing wave functions is not the only interpretation of reality, but has been the fashionable one. An excellent and very readable book is Schrodinger's Kittens by John Gribbin, which explains the weirdness of reality and the quantum world. What is fascinating in this book is the historical series of experiments that show the utter mind-boggling impossibility of reality - but at the end it discusses up-coming new theories that can account for it, a bit like finding out how a magic trick is done. These invariably require a new way of viewing time and do away with the collapsing wave function issue, but the details are beyond my skills.

I use the analogy of a pool/billiards table, where the balls represent particles. If you watch a video of the balls bouncing around there is no way to tell if it's forward or backward. For an individual particle time means nothing - a photon may travel from the sun to your eye or equally be doing the exact opposite. So, in this picture the impact of a ball is one in a sequence but without an arrow of time.

But if you watch the video of the break off shot, then we definitely know the direction of time. Triangles of balls do not come together by chance. This is where entropy and life come in and another excellent Gribbin book: Deep Simplicity.

To answer the question does the past exist, my view is that only one reality exists - sort of unchanging and fixed but that we feel we move through it. So if an event now retrospectively determines an event in the past, I see no issue with that. As I understand it the past is not being changed but only being determined (ie unknown till that point).

Just some thoughts - I do love this type of subject. More info on the 2007 French experiment here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler's_delayed_choice_experiment

[Pons Asinorum]

Interesting Buzi-Blu, as I read other scientists commenting on the fact that time might be more illusionary than actual (similar to temperature: temperature is a statistical average of the speed of molecules striking a thermometer – the kinetic energy of those molecules impacting is real, but temperature is a statistical construct that has no bearing on reality, just on our perception).

Just as temperature may be a product of other real parameters (kinetic energy, mass, momentum), so too might time also be a product of other real parameters (space, mass, gravity). In of itself, time may be just a construct of convenience to our consciousness.

In the quantum model, photons travel at the speed of light and by definition (ie, mathematically) cannot experience the flow of time (it may not be possible for us to imagine it, but from the perspective of a photon, the universe is frozen, even as it transverses it).

Also in the quantum model, the future does indeed influence the past – the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle asserts that certain quantum events cannot be known with certainty until observed. Once observed, then the history of the quantum particle resolves and becomes real: future influencing the past.

There are difficulties with our logic and with our models of reality on the quantum level. I have not read John Gribbin’s book, but it is now on my reading list – thank you for that.

[Majeston]

Time And Eternity

The Urantia Book; Paper 118, Section 1

It is helpful to man's cosmic orientation to attain all possible comprehension of Deity's relation to the cosmos. While absolute Deity is eternal in nature, the Gods are related to time as an experience in eternity. In the evolutionary universes eternity is temporal everlastingness -- the everlasting now.


The personality of the mortal creature may eternalize by self-identification with the indwelling spirit through the technique of choosing to do the will of the Father. Such a consecration of will is tantamount to the realization of eternity-reality of purpose. This means that the purpose of the creature has become fixed with regard to the succession of moments; stated otherwise, that the succession of moments will witness no change in creature purpose. A million or a billion moments makes no difference. Number has ceased to have meaning with regard to the creature's purpose. Thus does creature choice plus God's choice eventuate in the eternal realities of the never-ending union of the spirit of God and the nature of man in the everlasting service of the children of God and of their Paradise Father.

P1295:3, 118:1.3 There is a direct relationship between maturity and the unit of time consciousness in any given intellect. The time unit may be a day, a year, or a longer period, but inevitably it is the criterion by which the conscious self evaluates the circumstances of life, and by which the conceiving intellect measures and evaluates the facts of temporal existence.

P1295:4, 118:1.4 Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.

P1295:5, 118:1.5 In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.


P1295:6, 118:1.6 Patience is exercised by those mortals whose time units are short; true maturity transcends patience by a forbearance born of real understanding.


P1295:7, 118:1.7 To become mature is to live more intensely in the present, at the same time escaping from the limitations of the present. The plans of maturity, founded on past experience, are coming into being in the present in such manner as to enhance the values of the future.

P1295:8, 118:1.8 The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present -- the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.

On the levels of the infinite and the absolute the moment of the present contains all of the past as well as all of the future. I AM signifies also I WAS and I WILL BE. And this represents our best concept of eternity and the eternal.

On the absolute and eternal level, potential reality is just as meaningful as actual reality. Only on the finite level and to time-bound creatures does there appear to be such a vast difference. To God, as absolute, an ascending mortal who has made the eternal decision is already a Paradise finaliter. But the Universal Father, through the indwelling Thought Adjuster, is not thus limited in awareness but can also know of, and participate in, every temporal struggle with the problems of the creature ascent from animallike to Godlike levels of existence.

Next: Omnipresence And Ubiquity

[Serene]

Every day when I look in the mirror I definitely know that the past exists.....

[Jeff Sheets]

OK, so Shrodinger's cat just had babies and we can't know who the father is without a blow-by-blow discussion of the events. Meanwhile, all along, the cat could have been killed without anyone knowing about it.

I hate temporal mechanics...makes me yag...

-Jeff

[Majeston]

..... I can't grasp the concept that something I do now can change something that has already happened.

Most of the time I think there is just now, there is no past and there is no future, there is just this moment in time.

At Carthage—Discourse On Time And Space

The Urantia Book; Paper 130, Section 7

P1438:4, 130:7.1 Most of the time en route to Carthage Jesus talked with his fellow travelers about things social, political, and commercial; hardly a word was said about religion. For the first time Gonod and Ganid discovered that Jesus was a good storyteller, and they kept him busy telling tales about his early life in Galilee. They also learned that he was reared in Galilee and not in either Jerusalem or Damascus.

P1438:5, 130:7.2 When Ganid inquired what one could do to make friends, having noticed that the majority of persons whom they chanced to meet were attracted to Jesus, his teacher said: "Become interested in your fellows; learn how to love them and watch for the opportunity to do something for them which you are sure they want done," and then he quoted the olden Jewish proverb -- "A man who would have friends must show himself friendly."

P1439:1, 130:7.3 At Carthage Jesus had a long and memorable talk with a Mithraic priest about immortality, about time and eternity. This Persian had been educated at Alexandria, and he really desired to learn from Jesus. Put into the words of today, in substance Jesus said in answer to his many questions:

P1439:2, 130:7.4 Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness. Time is a name given to the succession-arrangement whereby events are recognized and segregated. The universe of space is a time-related phenomenon as it is viewed from any interior position outside of the fixed abode of Paradise. The motion of time is only revealed in relation to something which does not move in space as a time phenomenon. In the universe of universes Paradise and its Deities transcend both time and space. On the inhabited worlds, human personality (indwelt and oriented by the Paradise Father's spirit) is the only physically related reality which can transcend the material sequence of temporal events.

P1439:3, 130:7.5 Animals do not sense time as does man, and even to man, because of his sectional and circumscribed view, time appears as a succession of events; but as man ascends, as he progresses inward, the enlarging view of this event procession is such that it is discerned more and more in its wholeness. That which formerly appeared as a succession of events then will be viewed as a whole and perfectly related cycle; in this way will circular simultaneity increasingly displace the onetime consciousness of the linear sequence of events.

P1439:4, 130:7.6 There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. The confusion of the scientist grows out of failure to recognize the reality of space. Space is not merely an intellectual concept of the variation in relatedness of universe objects. Space is not empty, and the only thing man knows which can even partially transcend space is mind. Mind can function independently of the concept of the space-relatedness of material objects. Space is relatively and comparatively finite to all beings of creature status. The nearer consciousness approaches the awareness of seven cosmic dimensions, the more does the concept of potential space approach ultimacy. But the space potential is truly ultimate only on the absolute level.

P1439:5, 130:7.7 It must be apparent that universal reality has an expanding and always relative meaning on the ascending and perfecting levels of the cosmos. Ultimately, surviving mortals achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe.


P1439:6, 130:7.8 The time-space concept of a mind of material origin is destined to undergo successive enlargements as the conscious and conceiving personality ascends the levels of the universes. When man attains the mind intervening between the material and the spiritual planes of existence, his ideas of time-space will be enormously expanded both as to quality of perception and quantity of experience. The enlarging cosmic conceptions of an advancing spirit personality are due to augmentations of both depth of insight and scope of consciousness. And as personality passes on, upward and inward, to the transcendental levels of Deity-likeness, the time-space concept will increasingly approximate the timeless and spaceless concepts of the Absolutes. Relatively, and in accordance with transcendental attainment, these concepts of the absolute level are to be envisioned by the children of ultimate destiny.


>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
P1285:2, 117:4.13 And so the decision awaits each of you as it once awaited each of us: Will you fail the God of time, who is so dependent upon the decisions of the finite mind? will you fail the Supreme personality of the universes by the slothfulness of animalistic retrogression? will you fail the great brother of all creatures, who is so dependent on each creature? can you allow yourself to pass into the realm of the unrealized when before you lies the enchanting vista of the universe career -- the divine discovery of the Paradise Father and the divine participation in the search for, and the evolution of, the God of Supremacy?


P1285:3, 117:4.14 God's gifts -- his bestowal of reality -- are not divorcements from himself; he does not alienate creation from himself, but he has set up tensions in the creations circling Paradise. God first loves man and confers upon him the potential of immortality -- eternal reality. And as man loves God, so does man become eternal in actuality. And here is mystery: The more closely man approaches God through love, the greater the reality -- actuality -- of that man. The more man withdraws from God, the more nearly he approaches nonreality -- cessation of existence. When man consecrates his will to the doing of the Father's will, when man gives God all that he has, then does God make that man more than he is.

[Buzi-Blu]

This page explains the experiment very nicely:
http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm

It can be taken even further and here is a page I saved some time ago. It is worth reading it all the way through because it is quite incredible.
http://grad.physics.sunysb.edu/~amarch/

All notions based on common sense must be abandoned. Hard science backed up by careful experiments are the only reliable ways of getting at the true nature of reality.

[Pons Asinorum]

"Nonsense," said the reductionists. "Rubbish," said the materialists. "Completely absurd," said the naïve realists. "Yup," said the mathematicians.

That about sums-up the debates between philosophers, physicists (modern and classical), and mathematicians. (And not just in quantum mechanics, either).

Thanks Buzi-Blu (I'm really tempted to make that my signature line).

--

Those links were also brilliant descriptions of the double-slit experiment and of the concept of entangled states, respectively.
The explanation of Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment (WDC) was most intriguing. Some questions to anyone:

* The math must eliminate the parameter of time, but is there an example of this equation somewhere?

* Has WDC experiment ever been conducted in practice?

* RE: The gravitational lensing thought experiment -- the idea that the observation of an astronomer influences the path of a photon billions of years after that path was traveled (!)...

…What if two astronomers, both unknown to each other, made their observations, say one used a screen and detected the interference pattern and the other a telescope trained on only the “right-side” of the intervening galaxy…both, at the same time, does this not produce a contradictory result (particle and wave simultaneously)?

In any event, the WDC does seem explainable if time as a property is eliminated. Astounding!

--

In the quantum eraser experiment, I have never been able to successfully understand non-locality. I understand why it is needed, but its justification seems so contrary to the order of reality as observed by, well, us humans. I am certain the math works out (these are the boyz that went head-to-head with Einstein and I am sure they brought their “A” game – no algebra errors here ). Just a super-bizarre result IMHO.

In any event -- for the WDC experiment, time is eliminated. For the Bell State -- locality seems to be eliminated. Conceptually, it seems that our logic fails somewhat (the axioms that support our First Principles).

Truly fascinating stuff, thanks for those sources Buzi-Blu.


(and why is a conscious entity required to make the observation to resolve the probability wave… another thread perhaps ).

[Buzi-Blu]

My Gribbin book is buried away somewhere so I must write from memory. But he wrote about a few new (10 years ago) theories that don't rely on any observer collapsing a wave function. One idea that I remember was that light has forms going forward and backward in time but the backward ones cancel out. Something also to do with the solutions for the wave equation with imaginary numbers and that the negative imaginary value had been traditionally ignored. If it is taken into account it predicts backward moving signals. Something like that.

With these slit experiments I think the error lies in treating it as past to future, whereas the system as a whole is what matters. The instantantaneous action at a distance is very odd, and would seem to indicate the backward signals in time. The more I think of it the less I understand.

So I do tend to think time exists as a dimension but the way everything is connected is beyond us at this point. Another concept I have accepted for my own benefit until further evidence comes along is this:

Imagine the Big Bang is like the South Pole - the only direction that exists is north and so likewise the only direction that exists is future. If (a big if) there is a "bang" everything can only move in that direction and thus form an expanding circle, each entity tracing a time-line. Any deviation later through space corresponds to east/west motion (at the expense of less movement through time). Gravity plays a crucial role and is probably closely tied to time, two sides of the same coin in my opinion. Gravity starts a chain of "interesting" positive feedback loops - matter collects more matter and then produces stars and heavy elements etc. These combine and by chance some molecules will be able to copy better than others (not yet at the alive stage). By their very nature the ones that copy best will be more successful and the road to evolution is set. And it is this that creates the "pool ball triangle" that can then decay, all driven by gravity. Brains collect information while the world decays (ie increases entropy) which gives the direction of time. This is all just opinion, I've long abandoned maths and only occasionally think on these subjects but in a very visual way (probably inspired by the wonderfully clear Lewis Carroll Epstein models of space-time).

The question by Pons Asinorum about the contradiction: it only applies if the same photons are being detected I think. The WDC was done in 2007, in France (see the bottom of that page).

A few years ago when I read that entangled photon experiment I wondered if you could use it to know the future. If the interference pattern has gone then someone put the polarizer in place sometime in the future. There must be a snag in this idea otherwise you could build a machine to tell the lottery numbers.

[Pons Asinorum]

Something also to do with the solutions for the wave equation with imaginary numbers and that the negative imaginary value had been traditionally ignored. If it is taken into account it predicts backward moving signals. Something like that.

Wave equations typically do have imaginary numbers as part of their terms (one of their great practical uses). Since the imaginary number has two roots (+ or – the square root of -1), maybe the negative root is typically discarded as a matter of practice. For example, given the imaginary number of 2 + 3i:

2 + 3i = 2 + 3i and 2 – 3i

Maybe 2 – 3i has no practical meaning (traditionally). If Dr. Gribbin found a practical use, it should prove easy to see if it is consistent mathematically. These terms are also translatable into electronic circuits and it may provide an excellent basis for an experiment. Of course, someone in the future would need to generate a signal that we could detect in the present (that might be a bit tricky ).

The instantantaneous action at a distance is very odd, and would seem to indicate the backward signals in time. The more I think of it the less I understand.

Me too! And since nothing can travel faster then the speed of light (Special Theory of Relatively) what other parameters can be altered but time (as in appears to run backwards) and space (as in non-locality, which is really hard for me to understand conceptually).

And it is this that creates the "pool ball triangle"…

Perhaps this is where mathematicians and scientists might disagree vigorously (recalling the quote in your first source). The chances of this happening spontaneously…

Your larger point is an excellent analogy of why the arrow of time appears “fixed” in the direction of back to forward only (and the Second Law just falls out of this(! ) Well stated Buzi-Blu.

The question by Pons Asinorum about the contradiction: it only applies if the same photons are being detected I think.

Oh yeah, and that might not even be possible (can two observers even “see” the same photon at the same time? Hmmm…headache).

(see the bottom of that page).

Got it, thanks.

A few years ago when I read that entangled photon experiment I wondered if you could use it to know the future. If the interference pattern has gone then someone put the polarizer in place sometime in the future. There must be a snag in this idea otherwise you could build a machine to tell the lottery numbers.

Oh, yeah, never thought about entanglement as a mechanism for time travel -- great idea Buzi-Blu.

The two particles are linked simultaneously. So the instant a polarizer was applied to one particle, the other would have the opposite polarization immediately (literally). Non-locality means they are dimensionally linked (as though they are in the same place albeit it in different spaces, also literally), but see nothing that says they cannot exist in different time frames. The trick would be to get the two photons in different frames of reference without breaking the quantum entanglement.

Here is a shot (a long way from lottery numbers , but…):

So, for example, one particle finds itself near the mass of a black hole, its frame of reference would experience a slowing of time relative to its counterpart near (say) the earth. If someone placed a polarizer in the earthbound-photon, then black hole-photon would instantly have the opposite polarization. Relative to each other, information would travel “backward in time”– however, because the two photons have to be treated as one due to the principle of non-locality, a change in one happens to the other immediately (ayi-yi-yi, it is a beach of concept).

The big bet: would the Bell state would be broken the moment one photon travels into another inertia frame (in the case of entangled electrons, maybe even the act of acceleration would break the Bell state?).

Just a shot in the dark --

[Ace Rimmer]

Time is a river and we are floating down it in a small canoe, facing forward. We can't see what is behind us and can't see what is ahead of us around the next bend.

Or not.....

[Buzi-Blu]

I have no idea. I went to bed thinking over some of this and of course achieved nothing. The black hole experiment is losing me now, the whole thing becomes way too mathematical.

Perhaps this is where mathematicians and scientists might disagree vigorously (recalling the quote in your first source). The chances of this happening spontaneously…

What I mean is that the process of evolving from molecules, say, to what we have today - ie increasing complexity - is the opposite of the universe in general. A dead animal for example will break down in a statistically expected way but the animal came about by the 14 billion years of processes. The mystery to me is why does mathematics exist, why is there logic?

Last night I was trying to think how a particle could be a wave and particle. But what occured to me is this apparent wave behaviour is not really like waves, it is not as if photons (for example) cancel out in the dark patches which would give the impression of vanishing. Rather they always hit the screen somewhere but tend to land in the bright bands. So what could be causing a photon to "prefer" those bands?

Another idea, and I am going off tangent even more, is imagine a particle path as a line on a piece of paper, diagonal say. Now roll it up (ink on outside). The path becomes wave-like. So if extra dimensions collapsed down to a quantum scale then a particle will still be passing through them. Just an idea which doesn't help one bit but is one way of creating a wave-particle duality. I still feel there is a real universe out there, not the fuzzy magical one fashionable today, we just don't know enough yet.

I'll try and dig out the Gribbin book and see what it actually said.

Time is a river and we are floating down it in a small canoe, facing forward. We can't see what is behind us and can't see what is ahead of us around the next bend.

Was it in Lord of the Rings that says the Trolls believe we travel through time looking backwards because we can see what has gone but not what is coming?


--- EDIT: combined double post to comply with forum rules (please use edit function in the future, thanks -- Pons)) ------------------------------------


OK, found the book.

“This duality shows up most clearly in the calculation of probabilities in the context of quantum mechanics. The properties of a quantum system are described by a mathematical expression, sometimes known as the ‘state vector’ [essentially another term for the wave function], which contains information about the state of a quantum entity- the position, momentum, energy, and other properties of the system. In general, this state vector includes a mixture of both ordinary ['real'] numbers and imaginary numbers [those involving i, the square root of -1]. Such a mixture is called a complex variable, for obvious reasons; it is written down as real part plus [or minus] an imaginary part. The probability calculations needed to work out the chance of finding an electron in a particular place at a particular time actually depend on calculating the square of the state vector corresponding to that particular state of the electron… this does not mean multiplying it by itself. Instead, you have to make another variable, a mirror-image version called the complex conjugate, by changing the sign [plus or minus] in front of the imaginary part. The two complex numbers are then multiplied together to give the probability. But for equations that describe how a system changes as time passes, this process of changing the sign of the imaginary part and finding the complex conjugate is equivalent to reversing the direction of time! The basic probability equation, developed by Max Born back in 1926, itself contains an explicit reference to the nature of time, and to the possibility of two kinds of Schrodinger equations, one describing advanced waves and the other representing retarded waves… for some 70 years most physicists have largely ignored one of the two sets of solutions because ‘obviously’ it didn’t make sense to talk about waves travelling backwards in time.”

Rather than type it I copied from this site
http://astrophysicsandangels.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/

The forward and backward signals are the work of John Cramer and explained here (from 1986!!)
http://www.p-i-a.com/Magazine/Issue11/Physics_11.htm

There we go, one universe explained. If only Windows 7 64 bit was that simple.

[Ace Rimmer]

I think the Trolls where on to something.

[Majeston]

I have no idea. I went to bed thinking over some of this and of course achieved nothing. The black hole experiment is losing me now, the whole thing becomes way too mathematical.

Perhaps this is where mathematicians and scientists might disagree vigorously (recalling the quote in your first source). The chances of this happening spontaneously…

What I mean is that the process of evolving from molecules, say, to what we have today - ie increasing complexity - is the opposite of the universe in general. A dead animal for example will break down in a statistically expected way but the animal came about by the 14 billion years of processes. The mystery to me is why does mathematics exist, why is there logic?

Last night I was trying to think how a particle could be a wave and particle. But what occured to me is this apparent wave behaviour is not really like waves, it is not as if photons (for example) cancel out in the dark patches which would give the impression of vanishing. Rather they always hit the screen somewhere but tend to land in the bright bands. So what could be causing a photon to "prefer" those bands?

Another idea, and I am going off tangent even more, is imagine a particle path as a line on a piece of paper, diagonal say. Now roll it up (ink on outside). The path becomes wave-like. So if extra dimensions collapsed down to a quantum scale then a particle will still be passing through them. Just an idea which doesn't help one bit but is one way of creating a wave-particle duality. I still feel there is a real universe out there, not the fuzzy magical one fashionable today, we just don't

Buzi
I posted this in reply to GF1075 in the White Man thread on page 5 and perhaps it can help you as well.
viewtopic.php?p=30886#p30886

Also in your writings above you are making some assumptions which are very incorrect. There was no big bang, Einstein,s theory of special relativity contains major flaws and errors, the age of the universe is off by at least a factor of 1000, science in general has not yet discovered space respiration and much more.
You should not take my word for any of this, but you should respect some of your more progressive colleagues who do understand some of what is confusing you. Another major error is the beta decay of radioactivity has not been constant but has been manipulated at times by the people who control such phenomena. Logic can only be taken just so far with very meger information about reality and what seeems logical in many cases is erroneous. Mathematics was not discovered by man out of the blue, it was revealed and only partially and in a very local setting.
You might want to view some of the work of Summa cum-laude Phd physics and mathematics Chris Halvorson at
http://perfectinghorizons.org/
And some of his work on History of Life and Fundamental Patterns of Reality; or some of the work of Nobel Laurate Kary Mullis, or perhaps Phd Mathematics Phil Calabrese professor Cal State or Phd Mathematics professor Humbolt State Bob Hunt. And of course the list goes on and on.

You might also be interested in the following which has recently been pointed out to me.

Big Bang Abandoned in New Model of the Universe
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25492/

As well as the following dated but valid paper by Michael Wisenbaker

The Big Bang Never Happened
http://urantiabook.org/archive/science/ ... frames.htm



Buzi,
One more correction while we are at it, there are things and beings that travel faster than light, in fact millions of times faster than light.

The Urantia Book; Paper 23, Section 3

P260:5, 23:3.1 The Solitary Messengers are the highest type of perfect and confidential personality available in all realms for the quick transmission of important and urgent messages when it is inexpedient to utilize either the broadcast service or the reflectivity mechanism. They serve in an endless variety of assignments, helping out the spiritual and material beings of the realms, particularly where the element of time is involved. Of all orders assigned to the services of the superuniverse domains, they are the highest and most versatile personalized beings who can come so near to defying time and space.

P260:6, 23:3.2 The universe is well supplied with spirits who utilize gravity for purposes of transit; they can go anywhere any time -- instanter -- but they are not persons. Certain other gravity traversers are personal beings, such as Gravity Messengers and Transcendental Recorders, but they are not available to the super- and the local universe administrators. The worlds teem with angels and men and other highly personal beings, but they are handicapped by time and space: The limit of velocity for most nonenseraphimed beings is 186,280 miles of your world per second of your time; the midway creatures and certain others can, often do, attain double velocity -- 372,560 miles per second -- while the seraphim and others can traverse space at triple velocity, about 558,840 miles per second. There are, however, no transit or messenger personalities who function between the instantaneous velocities of the gravity traversers and the comparatively slow speeds of the seraphim, except the Solitary Messengers.

Solitary Messengers are, therefore, generally used for dispatch and service in those situations where personality is essential to the achievement of the assignment, and where it is desired to avoid the loss of time which would be occasioned by the sending of any other readily available type of personal messenger. They are the only definitely personalized beings who can synchronize with the combined universal currents of the grand universe. Their velocity in traversing space is variable, depending on a great variety of interfering influences, but the record shows that on the journey to fulfill this mission my associate messenger proceeded at the rate of 841,621,642,000 of your miles per second of your time.

[Pons Asinorum]

Time is a river and we are floating down it in a small canoe, facing forward. We can't see what is behind us and can't see what is ahead of us around the next bend.

Or not.....

That is my favorite analogy Metaluna! It describes the whole idea of entropy and time in an intuitive way (and can even include gravity as the engine ). So intuitive, it makes me wonder if flow is exactly the correct word.

What I mean is that the process of evolving from molecules, say, to what we have today - ie increasing complexity - is the opposite of the universe in general. A dead animal for example will break down in a statistically expected way but the animal came about by the 14 billion years of processes.

Interesting perspective and one I hold too, but from a slightly different POV. The river analogy that Metaluna used is one that I am most comfortable with when applying it to the laws of entropy. As the river flows downhill, entropy increases, but there are eddy currents that oppose entropy and temporarily increase order.

It is in those eddy currents that pockets of increased order allow things like stars to temporarily form (and from them heavier elements). For life to evolve, however, requires an eddy current so powerful that it more than rivals the main current of the river itself.

Starting from a DNA molecule, for a human to form from natural principles (as we currently know them), the chances are beyond staggering. IIRC, mathematicians might quantify it as ONE chance out of 10^180 (that is ONE with 180 ZEROs following it). The universe itself appears to have been in existence for 10^17 seconds.

That means countless millions of successful DNA changes *per second* since the universe began are required (and if life began on Earth, then we only have a few billion years to work with and makes it even more unlikely).

For a mathematician, it would be like (yet another famous analogy) a paint store that experiences an earthquake. All the paint cans are splattered on the floor. When the quake ends, the owner looks on the floor of his store and observes the Mona Lisa. That would be more likely than the development of life.

So between cosmic triangular racks, improbably large eddy-currents, or spontaneous Mona Lisa paintings, perhaps the mathematicians require either a new set of undiscovered natural principles or some design-constant embedded in the universe, at least when it comes to Life (neither excludes the possibility of a Creator and one requires it).

That is what I was referring to about the mathematician disagreeing with the scientists:

"Nonsense," said the reductionists. "Rubbish," said the materialists. "Completely absurd," said the naïve realists. "Yup," said the mathematicians.

(luv it )

The mystery to me is why does mathematics exist, why is there logic?

That is it exactly!

Perhaps a Clue by virtue that the Mystery even exists?

So what could be causing a photon to "prefer" those bands?

That answer will probably take the next Einstein – reasoning from “A” to “B “to “C” will not likely work. We need an Einstein that can go from “A” to “B” to “H” and skip all the intervening steps.

Another idea, and I am going off tangent even more, is imagine a particle path as a line on a piece of paper, diagonal say. Now roll it up (ink on outside). The path becomes wave-like. So if extra dimensions collapsed down to a quantum scale then a particle will still be passing through them. Just an idea which doesn't help one bit but is one way of creating a wave-particle duality.

Not sure either, but that is a great way to envision spatial dimensions beyond the THREE we are familiar with. Roll it tightly, maybe each layer can represent a new dimension (not perfect, but a great analogy as visualizing extra-dimensional spaces is tough !).

… this does not mean multiplying it by itself. Instead, you have to make another variable, a mirror-image version called the complex conjugate, by changing the sign [plus or minus] in front of the imaginary part.

Wow, learned something new here. So they do use the complex number’s negative root, but as a factor in squaring.

I knew about the need to square the probability wave (that is a standard mathematical procedure in probability), but learned something new about the specifics. They square the positive root of the imaginary number, not with itself, but with its negative root.

So the square of (say) 2 + 3i:

What one might expect: (2 + 3i) X (2 + 3i) = 4 + 12i + 9i^2 = 4 + 12i – 9 = 12i - 5

What is actually done: (2 + 3i) X (2 - 3i) = 4 – 9i^2 = 4 + 9 = 13

I wonder why? Aside from simplicity, the imaginary term must not have any practical meaning (at least any known practical meaning).

All guess work for me (way out of my depth), but about that detail…

The decision to craft the probability function in this manner; if the justification was inductive reasoning, then that is a big problem as math requires only deductive reasoning –- from a mathematical perspective, the justification would be arbitrary (and of course a physicist might hold empirical evidence for their justification).

The Gribbin’s book is now number one in my reading list. Thanks again BB--

There we go, one universe explained. If only Windows 7 64 bit was that simple.

Talk about entropy, W7 = increasing disorder

Just hope the universe does not have the BSOD; how does one reboot that sucker?

[Buzi-Blu]

Big Bang Abandoned in New Model of the Universe
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25492/

That is an interesting idea, new to me and much neater than the Big Bang with its ugly singularity. The forum on that page is very high level and way beyond my mathematical knowledge so I think I should just leave it at that. The analogies and ideas I put forward are almost certainly incorrect but they help get one way of picturing the world. Other methods are equally valid.

I am unfamiliar with the Urantia book but it looks to me to be opinion. To be acceptable it must have sound reasons for the claims, verifiable by experiment. Maybe it states truth, maybe not but there is no way of determining this.

Lewis Carroll Epstein's Relativity Visualized is a brilliant book for illustrating how space and time are bent due to gravity, and much more. I don't think it is available now but this site below repeats much of it. It is worth pursuing, even to make the paper models. I finally now can picture how time is bent due to gravity, simple enough to explain in the pub - brilliant work. However, I cannot work out how to quote properly in these forums.
http://www.relativity.li/en/epstein2/read/


I'm just glad I never did any of this for a career.

Along with Schrodinger's Kittens (which is quite old), Gribbins Deep Simplicity I mentioned above is well worth reading. It is a strange book that covers many aspects but it fundamentally changed how I view life. It's based on pure mathematics but explained clearly, with some staggering results. For example the pattern of extinction frequency v. magnitude is also that found in earthquakes, due to the mathematics. Also a 2-time rhythm is found throughout the universe and a dripping tap can illustrate it: first you get drip-drip-drip, speed it up and next it's drip-drip, drip-drip (ie 2-time). Speed it up again and you hopefully will get a 4-time pattern, after that it is chaotic. It's tricky to get right but give it a try. Likewise with eddies in a stream: 1,2,4,8...chaos; so the most complex and interesting condition is just before chaos steps in and so it is with the network of life. Please note I cannot give the book justice in such a short summary - it's the detail of the mathematics and experiment that is impressive. With both of these books I read them from the library and bought them later, and read each a few times. Maybe there is better out there but these impressed me.

I wonder why? Aside from simplicity, the imaginary term must not have any practical meaning (at least any known practical meaning).

As I understand the i represents time (or the perpendicular axis when used more generally).

Talk about entropy, W7 = increasing disorder

Just hope the universe does not have the BSOD; how does one reboot that sucker?

And Microsoft's customer support is as useless as the universe's. Maybe there is no Microsoft.

[Majeston]

Big Bang Abandoned in New Model of the Universe
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25492/

That is an interesting idea, new to me and much neater than the Big Bang with its ugly singularity. The forum on that page is very high level and way beyond my mathematical knowledge so I think I should just leave it at that. The analogies and ideas I put forward are almost certainly incorrect but they help get one way of picturing the world. Other methods are equally valid.

I am unfamiliar with the Urantia book but it looks to me to be opinion. To be acceptable it must have sound reasons for the claims, verifiable by experiment. Maybe it states truth, maybe not but there is no way of determining this.

Sure there is Buzi if you know where to look and if you have been tracking new scientific discoveries for 40 years or so. One example"......

******Since 2008, the oldest rock on earth has been discovered by McGill University in the Nuvvuagittuq greenstone belt on the coast of Hudson Bay, in northern Quebec, and is dated from 3.8 to 4.28 billion years old.

******1934 Urantia revelation states-

57:8.11-13
This entire age was characterized by frequent and violent storms. The early crust of the earth was in a state of continual flux. Surface cooling alternated with immense lava flows. Nowhere can there be found on the surface of the world anything of this original planetary crust. It has all been mixed up too many times with extruding lavas of deep origins and admixed with subsequent deposits of the early world-wide ocean.

Nowhere on the surface of the world will there be found more of the modified remnants of these ancient preocean rocks than in northeastern Canada around Hudson Bay. This extensive granite elevation is composed of stone belonging to the preoceanic ages. These rock layers have been heated, bent, twisted, upcrumpled, and again and again have they passed through these distorting metamorphic experiences.

????????????????
Then of course we have the more important way of knowing but then, I don,t know how much experience you have in this area or how well you have developed these communication skill........




ACKNOWLEDGMENT
0:12.10 In formulating the succeeding presentations having to do with the portrayal of the character of the Universal Father and the nature of his Paradise associates, together with an attempted description of the perfect central universe and the encircling seven superuniverses, we are to be guided by the mandate of the superuniverse rulers which directs that we shall, in all our efforts to reveal truth and co-ordinate essential knowledge, give preference to the highest existing human concepts pertaining to the subjects to be presented. We may resort to pure revelation only when the concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind.
Successive planetary revelations of divine truth invariably embrace the highest existing concepts of spiritual values as a part of the new and enhanced co-ordination of planetary knowledge. Accordingly, in making these presentations about God and his universe associates, we have selected as the basis of these papers more than one thousand human concepts representing the highest and most advanced planetary knowledge of spiritual values and universe meanings. Wherein these human concepts, assembled from the God-knowing mortals of the past and the present, are inadequate to portray the truth as we are directed to reveal it, we will unhesitatingly supplement them, for this purpose drawing upon our own superior knowledge of the reality and divinity of the Paradise Deities and their transcendent residential universe.
We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience—God-consciousness.
[Indited by an Orvonton Divine Counselor, chief of the corps of superuniverse personalities assigned to portray on Urantia the truth concerning the Paradise Deities and the universe of universes.]


My best wishes to you Buzi in your quest for truth and understanding. You can lead a horse to water>>>>>>>>>>>and also you certainly can,t drink it for him.



Oh, I almost forgot, you have this encounter in the early 30's which of course you have no way of proving, but there must be some logic or understanding within yourself which can at least begin comprehend what is really going on.

44:0.8 All these activities of the morontia and spirit worlds are real. To spirit beings the spirit world is a reality. To us the material world is the more unreal. The higher forms of spirits freely pass through ordinary matter. High spirits are reactive to nothing material excepting certain of the basic energies. To material beings the spirit world is more or less unreal; to spirit beings the material world is almost entirely unreal, being merely a shadow of the substance of spirit realities.

I cannot, with exclusive spirit vision, perceive the building in which this narrative is being translated and recorded. A Divine Counselor from Uversa who chances to stand by my side perceives still less of these purely material creations. We discern how these material structures appear to you by viewing a spirit counterpart presented to our minds by one of our attending energy transformers. This material building is not exactly real to me, a spirit being, but it is, of course, very real and very serviceable to material mortals.

There are certain types of beings who are capable of discerning the reality of the creatures of both the spirit and the material worlds. Belonging to this class are the so-called fourth creatures of the Havona Servitals and the fourth creatures of the conciliators. The angels of time and space are endowed with the ability to discern both spirit and material beings as also are the ascending mortals subsequent to deliverance from the life in the flesh. After attainment of the higher spirit levels the ascenders are able to recognize material, morontia, and spirit realities.

There is also here with me a Mighty Messenger from Uversa, an ascendant Adjuster-fused, onetime mortal being, and he perceives you as you are, and at the same time he visualizes the Solitary Messenger, the supernaphim, and other celestial beings present. Never in your long ascendancy will you lose the power to recognize your associates of former existences. Always, as you ascend inward in the scale of life, will you retain the ability to recognize and fraternize with the fellow beings of your previous and lower levels of experience. Each new translation or resurrection will add one more group of spirit beings to your vision range without in the least depriving you of the ability to recognize your friends and fellows of former estates.

All this is made possible in the experience of ascending mortals by the action of the indwelling Thought Adjusters. Through their retention of the duplicates of your entire life's experiences, you are assured of never losing any true attribute you once had; and these Adjusters are going through with you, as a part of you, in reality, as you.

But I almost despair of being able to convey to the material mind the nature of the work of the celestial artisans. I am under the necessity of constantly perverting thought and distorting language in an effort to unfold to the mortal mind the reality of these morontia transactions and near-spirit phenomena. Your comprehension is incapable of grasping, and your language is inadequate for conveying, the meaning, value, and relationship of these semispirit activities. And I proceed with this effort to enlighten the human mind concerning these realities with the full understanding of the utter impossibility of my being very successful in such an undertaking.

I can do no more than attempt to sketch a crude parallelism between mortal material activities and the manifold functions of the celestial artisans. If the Urantia races were more advanced in art and other cultural accomplishments, then could I go that much farther in an effort to project the human mind from the things of matter to those of morontia. About all I can hope to accomplish is to make emphatic the fact of the reality of these transactions of the morontia and the spirit worlds.





And Buzi, please tell me what slide rule; thermometer; yardstick; radio frequency or convoluted big bang theory I need to use to prove this………..but, maybe It’s all just opinion. The trick is, just who’s opinion is it and just how high up on the ladder of reality does the opinion originate, and then you have the actual fact that the so-called opinion is actually the truth. OMG will wonders never cease. What a wonderful age to be living in, Einstein would have loved it; if he only knew…


2. CONSTITUTION OF HAVONA

14:2.1 Spirit beings do not dwell in nebulous space; they do not inhabit ethereal worlds; they are domiciled on actual spheres of a material nature, worlds just as real as those on which mortals live. The Havona worlds are actual and literal, albeit their literal substance differs from the material organization of the planets of the seven superuniverses.

The physical realities of Havona represent an order of energy organization radically different from any prevailing in the evolutionary universes of space. Havona energies are threefold; superuniverse units of energy-matter contain a twofold energy charge, although one form of energy exists in negative and positive phases. The creation of the central universe is threefold (Trinity); the creation of a local universe (directly) is twofold, by a Creator Son and a Creative Spirit.

The material of Havona consists of the organization of exactly one thousand basic chemical elements and the balanced function of the seven forms of Havona energy. Each of these basic energies manifests seven phases of excitation, so that the Havona natives respond to forty-nine differing sensation stimuli. In other words, viewed from a purely physical standpoint, the natives of the central universe possess forty-nine specialized forms of sensation. The morontia senses are seventy, and the higher spiritual orders of reaction response vary in different types of beings from seventy to two hundred and ten.

None of the physical beings of the central universe would be visible to Urantians. Neither would any of the physical stimuli of those faraway worlds excite a reaction in your gross sense organs. If a Urantia mortal could be transported to Havona, he would there be deaf, blind, and utterly lacking in all other sense reactions; he could only function as a limited self-conscious being deprived of all environmental stimuli and all reactions thereto.

There are numerous physical phenomena and spiritual reactions transpiring in the central creation which are unknown on worlds such as Urantia. The basic organization of a threefold creation is wholly unlike that of the twofold constitution of the created universes of time and space.

All natural law is co-ordinated on a basis entirely different than in the dual-energy systems of the evolving creations. The entire central universe is organized in accordance with the threefold system of perfect and symmetrical control. Throughout the whole Paradise-Havona system there is maintained a perfect balance between all cosmic realities and all spiritual forces. Paradise, with an absolute grasp of material creation, perfectly regulates and maintains the physical energies of this central universe; the Eternal Son, as a part of his all-embracing spirit grasp, most perfectly sustains the spiritual status of all who indwell Havona. On Paradise nothing is experimental, and the Paradise-Havona system is a unit of creative perfection.

The universal spiritual gravity of the Eternal Son is amazingly active throughout the central universe. All spirit values and spiritual personalities are unceasingly drawn inward towards the abode of the Gods. This Godward urge is intense and inescapable. The ambition to attain God is stronger in the central universe, not because spirit gravity is stronger than in the outlying universes, but because those beings who have attained Havona are more fully spiritualized and hence more responsive to the ever-present action of the universal spirit-gravity pull of the Eternal Son.

Likewise does the Infinite Spirit draw all intellectual values Paradiseward. Throughout the central universe the mind gravity of the Infinite Spirit functions in liaison with the spirit gravity of the Eternal Son, and these together constitute the combined urge of the ascendant souls to find God, to attain Deity, to achieve Paradise, and to know the Father.

Havona is a spiritually perfect and physically stable universe. The control and balanced stability of the central universe appear to be perfect. Everything physical or spiritual is perfectly predictable, but mind phenomena and personality volition are not. We do infer that sin can be reckoned as impossible of occurrence, but we do this on the ground that the native freewill creatures of Havona have never been guilty of transgressing the will of Deity. Through all eternity these supernal beings have been consistently loyal to the Eternals of Days. Neither has sin appeared in any creature who has entered Havona as a pilgrim. There has never been an instance of misconduct by any creature of any group of personalities ever created in, or admitted to, the central Havona universe. So perfect and so divine are the methods and means of selection in the universes of time that never in the records of Havona has an error occurred; no mistakes have ever been made; no ascendant soul has ever been prematurely admitted to the central universe.


http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=1259

Lewis Carroll Epstein's Relativity Visualized is a brilliant book for illustrating how space and time are bent due to gravity, and much more. ………… It is worth pursuing, even to make the paper models.

I guess, if that’s what floats your boat at this time in time; but then again, it might just be opinion.

The Gribbin’s book is now number one in my reading list.

Yes, I running out right now to get my copy. ☺
I have absolutely no idea how I could have missed this brilliant work before now.

Pons Asinorum » 22 May 2011 03:02
The poem "The Blind Men and the Elephant" …..is based on an ancient fable out of India known by the same name.

It speaks to the folly of those men who beleive they know the absolute truth, even when it becomes clear that they do not.

I use the quote from the Saxe Poem because, among other things, it reminds me that as I come across yet another person with a modern, big book and a claim that all truth and knowledge resides in that book (all for the low, low price of...) -- proceed with caution and heed the warning from a fable dating back thousands of years.

☺

[Pons Asinorum]

Pons Asinorum » 22 May 2011 03:02
The poem "The Blind Men and the Elephant" …..is based on an ancient fable out of India known by the same name.

It speaks to the folly of those men who beleive they know the absolute truth, even when it becomes clear that they do not.

I use the quote from the Saxe Poem because, among other things, it reminds me that as I come across yet another person with a modern, big book and a claim that all truth and knowledge resides in that book (all for the low, low price of...) -- proceed with caution and heed the warning from a fable dating back thousands of years.

☺

Believing in a book that claims authoritative knowledge of absolute truth is not the same as critically reading one the espouses a theory.

Here is the emphasis that you missed:

"It speaks to the folly of those men who beleive they know the absolute truth, even when it becomes clear that they do not."

That does not mean one should not read books about ideas, theories, science, etc (interesting that one could made that assumption), on the contrary: Read books, but feel no obligation to beleive. Discussing ideas and theories and then dissecting them in an intellectually honest manner is a good thing (the more knowledge the better, implied from the Saxe Poem, although hardly its most profound point). Some ideas can handle the scrutiny and some cannot. Sharing ideas and such scrutiny is a noble endeavor of one who wishes to enrich his or her life.

If one can distill something that they beleive is truth, then by all means embrace it.

When one wishes to instill that belief to another who knows it to be false, then by all means fight it.

For some, a single book may be their answer. For most, however, a broader base of knowledge may be required. At a minimum, one might be suspicious of a book that claims absolute Truth and yet cannot even make the best sellers list.

[Buzi-Blu]

All ideas stated are opinion; there is no absolute truth that we can comprehend and we must always resort to analogies. Inevitably these analogies only work up to a point within its own bounds. We are apes, and as such have a narrow range of experiences, and it is only through these experiences that we can imagine things.

A blind person cannot imagine the colour red. None of us can imagine such a simple object as a four dimensional cube. We do not know what magnetic fields feel like but other creatures can. So, with topics such as space-time and the quantum world we have no hope of truly understanding. We may get a sense of parts of it by comparison to everyday things. Atoms, for example, are not like anything else; atoms are only like atoms.

The issue I have here is the route to knowledge, not so much with whatever that knowledge is. Science is the method of establishing how the world works - to develop a theory based on what has gone before, make a prediction then crucially test through experiment. All claims should be repeatable by anyone, with no secrecy or hidden sources. In this way small steps are made. It is only through such methods that the absolutely staggering results of quantum mechanics can be first derived and then proved. We can trust that the results are valid because independent researchers (possibly sceptics) can each repeat it.

Is the Sun or Earth at the centre of our Solar System? How can we know? Observation and a theory, and then prediction. However, most of us have not done this. Instead we trust those that did, and that if it had been wrong then others would have noticed that. Nevertheless, we know that the process is checkable if we should choose to double-check.

Statements within any holy book, even if true, cannot be verified. A track record of accurate facts cannot be counted as evidence that any additional facts are true. It is interesting in the quote about the oldest rocks in Canada that this fact can only be verified by academics from the McGill University. Holy books turn to science to give them credibility.

I personally tend to dislike it when humans are put on some evolutionary pedestal as if we are superior. None of us would survive long if it were not for roles of microbes in our gut, plants, bees, etc. etc. Every living thing on Earth shares exactly the same length of history. The worm in the garden also has 4 billion years of ancestors who each have struggled to produce offspring, and as such is now perfectly built for the function it performs. As apes we are therefore perfectly suited to ingeniously slaughtering each other and other things like realizing there is a wave-particle duality.

However, this too is opinion. We all choose our own methods. So I'll stick with the principles of academic research.

[Majeston]

All ideas stated are opinion; there is no absolute truth that we can comprehend and we must always resort to analogies. Inevitably these analogies only work up to a point within its own bounds. We are apes, and as such have a narrow range of experiences, and it is only through these experiences that we can imagine things.

A blind person cannot imagine the colour red. None of us can imagine such a simple object as a four dimensional cube. We do not know what magnetic fields feel like but other creatures can. So, with topics such as space-time and the quantum world we have no hope of truly understanding. We may get a sense of parts of it by comparison to everyday things. Atoms, for example, are not like anything else; atoms are only like atoms.

The issue I have here is the route to knowledge, not so much with whatever that knowledge is. Science is the method of establishing how the world works - to develop a theory based on what has gone before, make a prediction then crucially test through experiment. All claims should be repeatable by anyone, with no secrecy or hidden sources. In this way small steps are made. It is only through such methods that the absolutely staggering results of quantum mechanics can be first derived and then proved. We can trust that the results are valid because independent researchers (possibly sceptics) can each repeat it.

Is the Sun or Earth at the centre of our Solar System? How can we know? Observation and a theory, and then prediction. However, most of us have not done this. Instead we trust those that did, and that if it had been wrong then others would have noticed that. Nevertheless, we know that the process is checkable if we should choose to double-check.

Statements within any holy book, even if true, cannot be verified. A track record of accurate facts cannot be counted as evidence that any additional facts are true. It is interesting in the quote about the oldest rocks in Canada that this fact can only be verified by academics from the McGill University. Holy books turn to science to give them credibility.

I personally tend to dislike it when humans are put on some evolutionary pedestal as if we are superior. None of us would survive long if it were not for roles of microbes in our gut, plants, bees, etc. etc. Every living thing on Earth shares exactly the same length of history. The worm in the garden also has 4 billion years of ancestors who each have struggled to produce offspring, and as such is now perfectly built for the function it performs. As apes we are therefore perfectly suited to ingeniously slaughtering each other and other things like realizing there is a wave-particle duality.

However, this too is opinion. We all choose our own methods. So I'll stick with the principles of academic research.

Buzi, thanks for this opinion. I have done all I can do for you, I have opened the door, I have given you the proper links, passages and references in the above post and others for you to make potentials into actuals. I could spend days on just this one post of yours, but that would get us nowhere in the end. You would need to begin asking the types of questions that need to be asked in order to get the answers which would contribute to your own personal growth and I see no evidence of that at this time. You appear to be quite comfortable with where you are at, at this time. Nothing wrong with that. My best wishes on your journey as the years unfold before you, around you, and in you. The single example I offered you did not state the oldest rocks in Canada, it stated "more" of the oldest rocks on the planet.

.......

Pons,
I do not find you amusing in the least. I have never seen you quote or intuit anything that was accurate, including everything you have written above and I agree that your manner and behavior demands a dismissal of any moderator status.

[Pons Asinorum]

Another aspect of backwards time signaling might be found in the standard Lorentz Transform for time dilation (a mathematical formula used to compare time in one frame of reference to another moving frame, especially when the moving-frame is traveling at relativistic velocities):

The negative root of the radical in the denominator is discarded as a matter of practice because it is said to have no meaning. The negative root would render the perception of time in the moving-frame (t’) -- as seen by an observer in the reference-frame -- as negative, which could only be interpreted as the backwards or past direction. In other words, an observer in the reference-frame would perceive a single clock in the moving-frame as measuring time in a forwards and backwards direction, simultaneously. Since that does not happen (from experiments), the negative root is discarded (nothing to see here).

But what if the negative root did have meaning…how could that be possible (or maybe meaningful is a better word) -- not sure. It does appear that quantum mechanics and the Lorentz Transform either use or discard the negative roots in a manner that matches our perception (ie, experiment) rather than in a sound reasoning basis. In short, it appears to work, but the “why’s” are left unanswered.

Odds are, there is a missing piece of the puzzle somewhere (could Einstein be right, again!).

--

Pons,
I do not find you amusing in the least. I have never seen you quote or intuit anything that was accurate, including everything you have written above and I agree that your manner and behavior demands a dismissal of any moderator status.

Please note Majeston, that you quoted me, not the other way around -- I completely ignored your comments and let you write to your heart's content without commentary or disposition from me in the slightest.

You however, seem to have a fondness for engaging me as evidenced from your above behavior and similar efforts in different threads.

If you do not wish to engage me, then don't.

If you do, then do not cry about it if you receive a response.

Either way it matters not, to me. In short, please save the drama.



Further note that I serve at the pleasure of the admins and membership of this forum and will leave if asked without any fuss. The vast majority of this membership is quite respectful and pleasant toward each other and toward myself and fellow moderators.

You are not in that company.

Rather, you are among those few that seek the refuge of personal insults and rude behavior when their logic fails, and for such individuals, I am indeed on adversarial footings. Between the two -- the rude/caustic/fanatic and the respectful/pleasant/rational -- I prefer the latter, so yes, it is no surprise you have disdain for me.

Any further correspondence about this matter, if you must, should be via PM. Otherwise I suggest you seek a different victim, but be warned, the rules prohibiting rude behavior will enforced by all mods.

[Buzi-Blu]

Here is a PowerPoint presentation by John Cramer, he's the guy who came up with the theory of backward in time waves (called advanced waves). Quite heavy going in parts.

http://faculty.washington.edu/jcramer/PowerPoint/Boskone_0402.ppt

It covers all the points raised here, and starts with poem "The Blind Men and the Elephant" mentioned above by Pons Asinorum.

However, it all seems to boil down to the validity of the Afshar test and that, as far as I can tell, is debatable.



On the Lorentz Transformation, check out my Epstein link above (just above the curved space pics) and look at section 4.2. This shows a simple geometric arrangement that produces the same equation using Pythagoras' rule. Not sure what a negative root would imply in that set up.

I'm with Einstein - the theory is not complete.

[Pons Asinorum]

The powerpoint presentation was quite good, thank you Buzi-Blu. I greatly enjoyed the interpretation of the "The Blind Men and the Elephant" and the accompanying illustrations. Dr. Cramer's explanations of the the different models flowed quite well. His defense of his ideas seems quite convincing to me (not a big deal, as i am no scientist, but hey, those (few) parts that I could understand seemed to make good sense).

The Epstein paper is a treasure trove! The geometry absolutely flows and really makes the time dilation stuff much more understandable. I could not find the diagrams you referenced, but will continue to read.

The sec 4.2 summary contains some time dilation geometry and equates it to the standard Lorentz Transforms graphically:


(from: http://www.relativity.li/en/epstein2/read/c0_en/c8_en/)

In the case of the Lorentz Transform, we have Δt multiplied by γ (the square root of 1 – v^2/c^2). Since γ is unit-less, it acts as a coefficient for Δt and its negative root therefore makes Δt’ negative. The only interpretation for that is “negative time.” What that means, who knows? My guess is that from the perspective of the reference-frame, the clock in the primed-frame would appear to operate in reverse (time would project toward the past).

In the case of the Epstein geometry, we are given the identity of γ = cos φ. As before, Δt is multiplied by cos φ. Since cos φ has a negative sense, it also can render a “negative time” interpretation. In this case it is easy to see that the position in space is defined as along the positive direction of the x- axis in the reference-frame. Therefore, cos φ can have only two solutions in the coordinate system for the reference-frame: Quadrant I and Quadrant IV (the orientation of the coordinate axis is a bit different than the conventional). In Quadrant IV, time for the primed-frame is projected in the negative direction – as before, time would project toward the past.

I am not exactly certain how to interpret that, maybe that is the answer = “No.”

In any event, looking forward to what you and others have to say regarding this idea of the past influencing the future (via particle-signaling as a feature of the universe or any other means). The possibilities are just intriguing.


-------------------------


Correction: In my presentation of the Lorentz Transform for time dilation, I mistakenly transposed Δt and Δt'. My bad.

Should be Δt = Δt'/γ

[Buzi-Blu]

Correction: In my presentation of the Lorentz Transform for time dilation, I mistakenly transposed Δt and Δt'. My bad.

I did exactly the same when I was getting increasingly frustrated at being unable to get my basic maths right. The diagram you posted is pretty much the one I meant, or variations of it.

More ramblings:
Motion is the change of position with respect to time. But what is space and time?

A metre is defined as the distance travelled by light in a vacuum in 1/299 792 458 of a second.

OK, so distance is measured using the speed of light c and a time t. But if a metre is defined through c then it is meaningless to define c using metres.

What is a second? How is that measured. Until recently it was measured by averaging the motion of the bodies in the Solar System, ie by changes in position. This is a cyclical argument, each is defined by the other.

Today, 1 second is defined as: the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the
transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom (copied from Wikipedia).

Is this just change in position again in another form? Or is it more fundamental? This makes me think of radioactive decay which is a type of clock independent of external factors. How does the atom "know" when it is time to decay? What is its internal clock?

Maybe this is consistent. Using the Epstein diagram if the arc of radius r cuts the space axis at 1 metre then it cuts the time axis at 1/299 792 458 seconds, all scaled by the speed of light c.

c is just c, a scaling factor between the space and time axes, and just as we always feel we face forward similarly we always feel we move along the time axis, but others will see our axes tilted.

I'm now just reading how G might vary with time, and G is inextricably linked to space-time and entropy so may lead to intriguing results.

Too confused

[Bob137]

This discussion reminds me of the psychological question: Which is rounder and orange.
The answer I guessed right is: No an apple. Once you figure that one out, you might find the answer to the whether the past exists yet?