Are the Khufu pyramid reliving chamber inscriptions FAKE ?

[Moon]

nevermind Hearte he is still asleep. although i would like to know what do you beleive in. if you believe in anything at all? or is your skull hollow? one thing to keep in mind that if the A.A.T is true you think the governments are going to allow everyone to know the truth about this? think about it, who controls the world? Government and there all about money and control. if we discover the truth there will be a rebellion. we will all know for sure that our governments have been lying to us since day one.

Please keep this a civil discussion. Everyone here has ideas and opinions they are expressing without the need to be rude or condescending. This is your first freebie so play nice in the future. Max

[Bob137]

In 1999, D.A. Stocks tested the efficacy of copper saws and drills on the granite in the Aswan quarries 500 miles up the Nile. The copper saw in his test was 1.8 meters long, 15 centimeters in depth, and 6 millimeters thick. Stocks experimented with both wet and dry sand and smooth and notched saws. In one test, workmen cut a slot 3 centimeters deep and 95 centimeters long in14 hours. It was slow work, but the ancient Egyptians had plenty of time and manpower. In the same experiment, the copper saw blade was ground down 7.5 millimeters. Overall, dry sand with a smooth blade worked best.

This came from that site Pons. Now figure this times the size of the granite stones, and how long would it take to cut them all so precise, and the curvature was done how! Sorry, but without an actual detail of it takes this long to cut a 10 ton block this size, and to dress it smoothly, and to do them all, also the ones that are curved are done this way or that, and it takes this long to do those, and for total amount of labor and time it takes this many years, etc... It is just as the site Hearte put forth! Just does not fit the bill completely, as does not the AAT theory on it, that is why there is not definite conclusions either way! Once someone can actually duplicate a pyramid 1/10th the size int he manners that are proposed,t hen it will be proven by whatever means, either that if the aliens come back and show how it was done, side from that, cats don't fly without wings!
Right along with other threads, those who propose proof that man built the pyramids and other megalithic structures without help, show me the blue prints, and schematics, build me a 1/10th scale of an exact pyramid, or of puma punku, not a bunch of assumptions, and probablies, and possibilities, and maybe's, and must haves, or if I can do this in mili-liters or even inches, then it can be done in tons, by the Egyptians because they had all kinds of time on their hands, nothing better to do, than drink beer and build pyramids!

Show me the money!

[Hearte]

Right along with other threads, those who propose proof that man built the pyramids and other megalithic structures without help, show me the blue prints, and schematics, build me a 1/10th scale of an exact pyramid...

The fact that you personally cannot believe a thing by no means invalidates that thing.

No matter how many arguments from incredulity you may present, your position is groundless if all you have is "I can't believe they did it."

You are welcome to believe whatever you want. There are things about how they quarried granite that you are either unaware of, or don't wish to admit knowing.

Besides, any theory must explain, again, the painted-on glyphs in the various relieving chambers that can be seen extending several feet into crevices between stones. As I said before, there are (as far as I can tell) only two ways this could have happened.

1) The Egyptians painted them on before the pyramid was finished, during construction, as several glyphs seem to indiocate (there are several quarry marks, similar to what has been seen insife other pyramids and other constructions in Egypt.)

2) The Egyptians moved into the area, finding the Great pyramid intact. They then proceeded to dismantle the top half of the structure, paint some glyphs on the stones, and then re-assembled the structure.

Which one makes more sense?

Hearte

[Bob137]

Neither!

[Pons Asinorum]

In the wireless energy machine hypothesis, the internal 'ramp' could be a 'Tesla coil' funneling wireless energy up to the capstone. It would be interesting knowing what type of stone was used in the 'ramp'.

If Mr. Nikola Tesla was alive today, he would be the first to show why this violates the prinicples he founded (or used):

a) Sharp, 90-degree-turns in a Tesla Coil offer high impedance to the flow of electrical energy. Of all the countless thousands of coils made by Tesla, not one has a sharp right-angled turn.

b) The relatively few coils makes this theory collapse, because in a Tesla Coil, voltage gain is determined by the ratio of turns: few turns, low gain. (I think this was a principle discovered by Tesla, not 100% in that).

c) The turns in a Tesla Coil are tightly packed for necessity. In the Pyramid, the turns are widely spaced.

d) Without a secondary coil, the Tesla Coil is incomplete and will not work as there is nothing to transfer energy to couple with the ground. To do it with just the primary is a short-circuit.

Would be happy to discuss this further Gemini (I could do it properly with the sources, prinicples, and formulas as founded by Tesla), but fear I have hijacked this thread. If you wish to pursue, would you be so kind as to either start a new thread or find an existing thread, and point me there?

Tesla is a fascinating person and would enjoy further exploring this with you, if you wish.

--

Just does not fit the bill completely, as does not the AAT theory on it, that is why there is not definite conclusions either way!

I agree with you that there are no definitive conclusions on how the Great Pyramid (GP) was built. However, on the parity of anthropological causes versus AAT, we do disagree. The evidence favors the former (in my view, by a large margin and increasingly so).

You gave a small example yourself with the granite. It does take a long time and that is the reason that of the 2.3 million blocks of stone, roughly 2.3 million are limestone blocks and not granite -- they did not have the technology or ability to make it out of granite. The comparatively few granite blocks did take a long time to cut and that is why there are less than what, one-tenth of one percent of granite.

It simply was a limitation of the builders of the GP.

Once someone can actually duplicate a pyramid 1/10th the size int he manners that are proposed,t hen it will be proven by whatever means, either that if the aliens come back and show how it was done, side from that, cats don't fly without wings!

Perhaps it is possible to prove how it was built without the replica model, by analyzing the evidence of the GP (although a replica model would be cool).

No matter what, perhaps we agree that it would be cool for aliens to visit the Earth. How funny would it be if they were like, "Hey cool Pyramid, how'd you guys build it?"

Cats without wings do fly all the time. They typically go commercial in the cargo holds of jets

...show me the blue prints, and schematics... not a bunch of assumptions, and probablies, and possibilities, and maybe's...

Seems no matter which theory one believes, certain assumptions and possibilities must be weighed.

...nothing better to do, than drink beer and build pyramids!

Give a good group of guys some tools, beer, and something "that cannot be built" -- next thing you know, men are standing on the moon

--

We both seem to agree on the possibilities (progress), but disagree on the likeliest probability -- I'm sure the world will survive

My apologies for hijacking this thread. Bob, I would be happy to continue this discussion in either a new or existing thread; you lead, I'll follow.

[Dane]

Good thread, I wasn't aware of this debate.

[Bob137]

Actually drinking and working brings folly not going to the moon! When people drink it is a proven fact that their reactions are slowed, and their thinking is impaired, so to say that they were drinking beer and built the most precise megalithic buildings on the planet that way, is not only a joke, but plum ridiculous, and downright insulting for mankind!

[Asfiqur]

Lets assume that Pharaoh Khufu himself made the inscription. Does it make him the builder of the pyramid? The Carbon Dating doesn't work in case of the stone masonries. Only guesswork doesn't make the Pyramids 4 or 5 thousand years old. I think its wiser to not to be so sure about the Pyramid's age. It is far older than the Egyptologysts would allow them to be.

Again lets say I went to see the Pyramid. And under the Khufu's inscription, I wrote 'Pharaoh Asfiqur' in red paint which will survive thousands of years. What will happen after 10000/20000 years from now? Another civilization will rediscover the pyramid. And their Egyptologysts will find this two inscriptions. And one of their genius Egyptologist will say," Well, its so clear. 'Pharaoh Khufu' started building the pyramid and 'Pharaoh Asfiqur' completed it."

[Vance]

Unless you can liquify yourself, you can't reach the place where the graffiti is. It's waay too narrow. Heart has already pointed this out.

[Asfiqur]

If it was built by Khufu, then why he just left his name in a single unnoticeable corner inside the pyramid?? There should have been many other inscriptions bearing his name. And not only in red paint, but rock curving and other stuff. Isn't it logical???

If you kindly visit this site you will see that even Khufu's name was spelt wrong in the catrouche. Zecharia Sitchin in his book 'The Stairway to Heaven' described it in detail how and why Vyse is suspicious about the possible forgery.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread527774/pg1

[Bob137]

Honestly I would have to go to Egypt and check out the Khufu inscriptions myself to believe they are real or fake! Both points of view have good arguments, but to me I would need a very close up, and possibly microscopic view to determine what is real, and what is fake! I know what each side has stated, but for one the proof is in the pudding, or otherwords, it has to be right or wrong,t here is no in between! You either are pregnant or your not, their is no half pregnant! From what I have seen online and in books, it is a fake, but I will just have to see it for myself someday to believe for sure one way or the other!

[Vance]

If it was built by Khufu, then why he just left his name in a single unnoticeable corner inside the pyramid?? There should have been many other inscriptions bearing his name. And not only in red paint, but rock curving and other stuff. Isn't it logical???

If you kindly visit this site you will see that even Khufu's name was spelt wrong in the catrouche. Zecharia Sitchin in his book 'The Stairway to Heaven' described it in detail how and why Vyse is suspicious about the possible forgery.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread527774/pg1

If you had bothered to read the whole thread you'd know that's already been talked about. So don't roll your emoticon eyes at me for being informed.

And I never said Khufu built the pyramid.

[Bob137]

Out of five chambers the one discovered by someone else has no inscriptions. Lady Arbuthnot's chamber has an inscription just like the one in the controversial chamber except it has no cross hatching mark, instead it is of a dot in the middle of the circle, pertaining to RA. Which begs the question, could Vyse have just added the 3 hatch marks to the inscription that was there, to make it Khufu, instead of Rafu! Vyse actually discovered Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber - indeed he discovered 4 chambers in total above the King’s Chamber. The only chamber he did not discover was Davidson’s Chamber, which was discovered much earlier in 1765 by Nathaniel Davidson. Oddly enough, Davidson’s chamber is the only chamber of the five relieving chambers that does not bear any of the so-called ‘quarry-marks’ – at least none that are plainly visible. Such plainly visible marking were found only in the four chambers opened by Vyse. Could Vyse have made all these inscriptions in these chambers, since there was not one found in the earlier chamber, by someone else? Could Ra be the more likely of the one who's temple it is? I know Hearte will disagree on whatever I state but if there is anyone else who is searching this site, and has input, would greatly appreciate it!

It may then be that these "Khufu" inscriptions we find are actually nothing more than elaborate versions of the "Raufu" inscriptions we find in the Abydos king list and elsewhere. Elaborate in the sense that the plain "Ra" circle is sometimes shown with the rising/setting places of Ra i.e. the three hatched lines. This is to say that the circle is composite (or dualistic) in nature, representing both "Ra" and "Horizon" at the same time. What this means, of course, is that Egyptologists have misread "Raufu" as "Khufu". The name "Khufu" probably never existed - it was always "Ra-ufu" (Ra = Sun God), (Ufu = Horizon).

Of course, symbolically also, the solstices represent "transition points" in the annual journey of the Sun (Ra). From winter to summer (rebirth) and from summer to winter (death). The equinoctial point is the point in betwixt, the halfway point, the point of balance, and the later form of the Akhet may indeed represent the Sun at its Equinoctial point i.e. the sun centered (equinox) between two hiils.

Naturally the solstices and equinox are division markers of the seasons of which there were three in Ancient Egypt.
More on this from this url: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread527774/pg1

[Vance]

OK, but still what Hearte and Graham Hancock is saying is that NO ONE could possibly fake this because it's in a place that NO ONE can reach. You can see it with a flashlight but you can't get to it. So you can't even add anything on.

[Bob137]

That is what they say, but other say that is not so, so I will keep checking, until I know for sure!

[Asfiqur]

Here is some points and question for Hearte:

Point 1.
# Lady Arbuthnot's chamber varies in height from one feet four inches to four feet five inches.
# Wellington's chamber varies in height from two feet two inches to three feet eight inches.
I don't know about the remaining chambers, but I don't see any problem putting inscriptions in these chambers!

Point 2.
Mainstream Archaeologists say that the era of Pyramid building started with Zoser's pyramid. Well, along with Zoser's pyramid, many other pyramids built by the Egyptians are now almost crumbled mound of mud. Why the Pyramid of Cheops, Chefra and Menkara is not so?? Vice versa, if these three pyramids remain so intact why the others built in later periods crumbled??
You are not suggesting that at beginning the Egyptians were master builders and as time passed they forgot how to build a long lasting Pyramid!

Point 3.
Another question is, why Khufu's son Radjedef did not build his pyramid right next to his father's pyramid?? The space where now Chefra's pyramid stands was empty then (As it wasn't built till Chefra's reign). So he was free to build a pyramid there. As Khufu's successor (murdering Kawa) he should have built the second pyramid. Why it wasn't so????

Point 4.
The Cartouches's written method is linear hieroglyphic and script hieratic. These were developed centuries later Khufu's reign.
How Khufu knew this hieroglyphic???

Point 5.
The cartouches were examined by Mr. Samuel Birch. An Egyptologist and hieroglyphic expert from the British Museum. He said about the cartouches, "The cartouche of Suphis is followed by a hieroglyphic to which it would be difficult to find a parallel." Some of the letters in the cartouche he did not recognize!

German Egyptologist Carl Bichard Lepsius said,"... were traced with a brush in red paint in a cursive manner, so much so that they resemble hieratic signs."

Point 6.
Inscriptions were found in Campbell's chamber, Wellington's chamber and Lady Arbuthnot's chamber. But not in the Nelson's chamber, which was found by Caviglia. The other three were discovered by Vyse. Not surprised though.

[Hearte]

That is what they say, but other say that is not so, so I will keep checking, until I know for sure!

What "others" say these painted-on glyphs aren't there?

Nobody that's been in the chamber since they were discovered, that I'll guarantee.

Hearte

[Bob137]

Hawass will not allow anyne in there to see the glyph's anymore!

[Hearte]

Here is some points and question for Hearte:
Point 1.
# Lady Arbuthnot's chamber varies in height from one feet four inches to four feet five inches.
# Wellington's chamber varies in height from two feet two inches to three feet eight inches.
I don't know about the remaining chambers, but I don't see any problem putting inscriptions in these chambers!

Not a question, but you appear to be ignoring what was said by Graham Hancock in reference to the glyphs painted between stones that are only inches apart. These stones are the walls, ceiling and floor of the chamber. He's not talking about on the walls in the chamber. He's talking about between the stones that make up the walls.

Point 2.
Mainstream Archaeologists say that the era of Pyramid building started with Zoser's pyramid. Well, along with Zoser's pyramid, many other pyramids built by the Egyptians are now almost crumbled mound of mud. Why the Pyramid of Cheops, Chefra and Menkara is not so?? Vice versa, if these three pyramids remain so intact why the others built in later periods crumbled??
You are not suggesting that at beginning the Egyptians were master builders and as time passed they forgot how to build a long lasting Pyramid!

I've suggested nothing at all about any pyramid other than Khufu's. Anywhere on this board.

There were only a few stone pyramids built before the Great Pyramid. Most of these are in pretty good shape as well. Check out the Red Pyramid.

Djoser's pyramid was originally a mastaba. They can tell by examining the construction that layers were added to it over the years that expanded it into both a larger footprint and a larger elevation. I'm no expert, but the hodge-podge building design may account for some of it's problems.

Necropolises moved north after that. There was an abandoned pyramid, then the bent pyramid, then the Red Pyramid after that, IIRC. These are all in reasonably decent shape. The fact that Snefru built all three of them no question stressed the Egyptian socioeconomy.

Point 3.
Another question is, why Khufu's son Radjedef did not build his pyramid right next to his father's pyramid?? The space where now Chefra's pyramid stands was empty then (As it wasn't built till Chefra's reign). So he was free to build a pyramid there. As Khufu's successor (murdering Kawa) he should have built the second pyramid. Why it wasn't so????

Considering that I wasn't there at the time, any answer is mere speculation. However, Khufu had moved the necropolis north. Maybe Djedefre was just following suit? He only had a (fairly) short reign (maybe 10-15 years.) Pehaps his hold on power wasn't strong enough to take control of almost the entire economy the way his father did. That could explain why his pyramid is ruined. Maybe it wasn't well-built in the first place.
Or, it could have been ruined purposefully. Who knows?

Point 4.
The Cartouches's written method is linear hieroglyphic and script hieratic. These were developed centuries later Khufu's reign.
How Khufu knew this hieroglyphic???

Khufu didn't write it. But:

hieratic script, ancient Egyptian cursive writing, used from the 1st dynasty (c. 2925–c. 2775 bc) until about 200 bc.

Source: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/264996/hieratic-script
Regarding linear hieroglyphics, this seems to be a term coined by Champollion and to my (scant) knowledge isn't used anymore.

Linear hieroglyphics are what Champollion called hieratic.

Point 5.
The cartouches were examined by Mr. Samuel Birch. An Egyptologist and hieroglyphic expert from the British Museum. He said about the cartouches, "The cartouche of Suphis is followed by a hieroglyphic to which it would be difficult to find a parallel." Some of the letters in the cartouche he did not recognize!

"Suphis" is Khufu. He didn't recognize the glyph because at the time, nobody had ever seen the glyph. I made this very point several times in this very thread. It is for this reason that I have maintained that there is simply no way that Vyse could have forged these glyphs.

German Egyptologist Carl Bichard Lepsius said,"... were traced with a brush in red paint in a cursive manner, so much so that they resemble hieratic signs."

Both Birch and Lesius were from Vyse's time. You are making my point very nicely. These scripts are today (you know, the present - modern times - 20th and 21st Century) called Hieratic Script.

Point 6.
Inscriptions were found in Campbell's chamber, Wellington's chamber and Lady Arbuthnot's chamber. But not in the Nelson's chamber, which was found by Caviglia. The other three were discovered by Vyse. Not surprised though.

Perhaps you're referring to the lack of grafitti in Davison's Chamber, as Nelson's has the best preserved grafitti of the five.

You expect me to know why there's no visible grafitti in Davison's chamber?

Obviously, any answer at all to this question is pure, unadulterated, blind speculation.

Sorry it took so long, but you have google you know. You could know what I know. I suggest reading at Tour Egypt to find all kinds of things out about what is factually known about the past in Ancient Egypt.

Hearte

[Gemini]

Point 5.
The cartouches were examined by Mr. Samuel Birch. An Egyptologist and hieroglyphic expert from the British Museum. He said about the cartouches, "The cartouche of Suphis is followed by a hieroglyphic to which it would be difficult to find a parallel." Some of the letters in the cartouche he did not recognize!

"Suphis" is Khufu. He didn't recognize the glyph because at the time, nobody had ever seen the glyph. I made this very point several times in this very thread. It is for this reason that I have maintained that there is simply no way that Vyse could have forged these glyphs.

As discussed in von Daniken's book 'The Eyes of the Sphinx', Legendary Times issue #35/36 and in AA episode, Suphis is Saurid who is Enoch.

[Hearte]

Point 5.
The cartouches were examined by Mr. Samuel Birch. An Egyptologist and hieroglyphic expert from the British Museum. He said about the cartouches, "The cartouche of Suphis is followed by a hieroglyphic to which it would be difficult to find a parallel." Some of the letters in the cartouche he did not recognize!

"Suphis" is Khufu. He didn't recognize the glyph because at the time, nobody had ever seen the glyph. I made this very point several times in this very thread. It is for this reason that I have maintained that there is simply no way that Vyse could have forged these glyphs.

As discussed in von Daniken's book 'The Eyes of the Sphinx', Legendary Times issue #35/36 and in AA episode, Suphis is Saurid who is Enoch.

Not really interested in anyone's opinion regarding Suphis and who he was.

If you think Suphis was Enoch, then you think Khufu was Enoch.

Was everyone Enoch?

When Samuel Birch uses the name "Suphis" in your quote, he's referring to Khufu, regardless of who you may wish to believe Khufu (AKA Suphis) actually was.
Note:

Pharaoh of Egypt ‎(2589-2566 BC)‎ Khufu ‎(Cheops, Kheops, Suphis or Souphis)‎ ‎(unknown)‎ ‎(I10880)‎
Prefix: Pharaoh of Egypt ‎(2589-2566 BC)‎
Given Names: Khufu ‎(Cheops, Kheops, Suphis or Souphis)‎

Source:http://www.whosyerdad-e.com/families-c/individual.php?pid=I10880&ged=etbarb.ged
See also:

Khufu (2589-2566 BC) was the 4th Dynasty (2613-2498) pharaoh who built the Great Pyramid of Giza. Originally, the Great Pyramid stood 481 feet (146.6 m) tall. Although commonly called Cheops (and also Suphis) because of the late Greek influence on Egypt, the name Khufu is the original ancient Egyptian name for this king as demonstrated by his own cartouche. He reigned for approximately 24 years.

Source: http://guardians.net/egypt/khufu.htm
And:

Khufu (in Greek known as Χέοψ, Cheops, pronounced /ˈhɛɒps/; according to Manetho, Σοῦφις, Suphis) was a Pharaoh of Ancient Egypt's Old Kingdom. He reigned from around 2589 to 2566 B.C.E Khufu was the second pharaoh of the Fourth Dynasty | zongo69 / DAVID HOLT

Source: http://earthpages.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/petrie-sir-william-matthew-flinders/
Among millions of other references saying the same, or similar, things.

Harte

[Gemini]

Saurid was known by the Hebrews as Enoch.

In Stephen Mehler’s book, ‘The Land of Osiris’, he writes that “Mayan Daykeeper Hunbatz Men, has provided a clue to a different meaning for the terms Khnum-Khuf or Khufu...’it turns out to be that K’UFU is the real name of the pyramid of KEOPS. K’U means GOD in Maya Itza (language) or sacred area'. Many times Hakim (Abd’El Hakim Awyan - Elder and Indigenous Khemitian Wisdom Keeper) asserted to me that the ‘names’ Khufu, Khafra and Menkaura were titles that referred to a particular connection to a Neter (of god/divine site) and could have been applied to many kings, or that they may have actually been titles of the Per-Neters (sites that are a house of nature or house of energy) themselves, or as Hunbatz has stated, to the sacred area of the Giza Plateau”.

[Hearte]

Elder and Indigenous Khemitian Wisdom Keeper) asserted to me that the ‘names’ Khufu, Khafra and Menkaura were titles that referred to a particular connection to a Neter (god/divine site) and could have been applied to many kings, or that they may have actually been titles of the Per-Neters (sites that are a house of nature or house of energy) themselves, or as Hunbatz has stated, to the sacred area of the Giza Plateau”.

It's true that Knum-Khuf means "the god Khnum protects me."

But in Egyptian, not Mayan.

Khafre (Khaf-Ra) means "Appearing like Ra."

It's possible that other kings had names like these. If so, they don't appear on any Egyptian kings lists.

Harte