Mercury wrote:Those men go overseas and spend several months together. The eat, sleep, sh!t and shower together. They are closer than most brothers ever are. Those who have never served in the military will never understand the bond of brotherhood it creates.
Manning broke this bond and is not to be given a medal for it. I don't even want him executed as it would waste a bullet. Why not let his former military comrades spend a day with him instead.
You don't need to say alleged with this case as he has admitted it. He also cried to the media claiming he is not being treated nicely. He has no sympathy from me for his actions.
Go to a parent who has lost their child overseas to the war. Go tell them what a hero Manning is. I am thinking you are going to need running shoes.
Foxlike Mulder wrote:Not until the true spirit of this nation rises will we see the men in white hats again.
Foxlike Mulder wrote:Not until the true spirit of this nation rises will we see the men in white hats again. I believe Manning's actions were in the spirit of standing up against what is wrong in this country, it's just his actions were plain wrong.
Pons Asinorum wrote:Foxlike Mulder wrote:Not until the true spirit of this nation rises will we see the men in white hats again.
There are no white hats, Fox, never have been; only grey and dark.Foxlike Mulder wrote:Not until the true spirit of this nation rises will we see the men in white hats again. I believe Manning's actions were in the spirit of standing up against what is wrong in this country, it's just his actions were plain wrong.
We are most definitely going to disagree here Fox (I still think you are pretty cool though ).
Mr. Manning took an oath, then he broke it. In my most humble opinion, a man that gives his most sacred Word of Honor (raises his right hand and voluntarily gives his oath in ceremony and in the presence of others giving the same Oath) and then breaks it has no spirit, no cause, and no reason to live (it's a philosophy thingy for me).
IMO, I do not think he did anything noble (symbolic or otherwise), and if that was his intent, then his actions failed miserably.
He could have written a book, run for congress, become a teacher (three of my fellow veterans whom I know personally did exactly that: they all became history teachers), become a peace activist, work hard and become a general officer -- all kinds of ways he could have used his knowledge and experience in order to do whatever good it is you are giving him credit for. He choose to break his oath.
In short, I only see him as a bad guy doing a bad thing and not as a bad guy doing a good thing, nor do I see a symbolic gesture that somehow relates to addressing all the flaws of our nation.
(For the record Fox, I think on my best day, you are way smarter than me. Maybe I cannot see the forest for the tree -- no way can I see beyond Manning breaking his Oath, I'm just not built that way -- but regarding your larger point, I think even here, Manning is getting way to much credit.)
Foxlike Mulder wrote:Both you and Mercury are focused on Manning and I'm not.
Foxlike Mulder wrote:I believe The Powers That Be are happy for you to set your sights on the betrayal, and not what's being exposed...which are all the lies hidden in the weeds. In addition, they don't want us to pay attention to the other explanations, the other viewpoints which expose that duplicity I spoke of above.
Foxlike Mulder wrote:The ideals of patriotism are extremely subjective and not part of human instinct.
Foxlike Mulder wrote:We can't go steam rolling into country after country in the name of "liberation against tyranny" when we are regarded as fascists, not saviors (see recent comments by Ron Paul). In fact, we see little of the aftermath because we're already onto the next thing (Syria and Iran). But take a look at Iraq, Libya, Egypt and Afghanistan (to name a few)...it's all a mess. We incited (or at least encouraged) regime change and in 3 of those 4 named countries, we left in chaos with no leader in place. And to boot, we urinate on dead people and burn their holiest of texts...not what I call actions of the men in white hats. It's ugly and the world sees it, unfortunately, we have blinders on.
Foxlike Mulder wrote:Another (juxtaposed) moral imperative? Please don’t tie this to Manning and his actions, but to the concept there may be more than one wrong in a situation, especially with the case I speak of. That is, the American government is hiding secrets and dangerous agendas that are transparent to people outside this country, but not inside the walls because of our highly conditioned, patriotic reference point.
Pons Asinorum wrote:Uh, well you did create and name your post: Bradley Manning, Nobel Peace Prize?
Pons Asinorum wrote:Have you considered the possibility that maybe they have put one over you?
Pons Asinorum wrote:Ever root for a football team, join a forum, fight for a family member, have a block party, join a movement (like AAT), put up a fence, put on a Ford bumper sticker on your car, cheer for your high school, support a political party, defend your friends...
Territorialism is a natural instinct, especially for social mammals. That it manifests itself in patriotism for an intelligent species is in accord with our ability to live together in vast numbers and groups.
Patriotism is a term used to describe that aspect of our nature when speaking about nations. It is neither good nor bad (just like guns).
Pons Asinorum wrote:Fox, perhaps there is too much emphasis on what others say about us. There is no perfect nation, including and especially those that are our biggest critics.
We are not perfect (shocker), our enemies will curse us (double shocker), our friends will sometimes join in that refrain (what, not the French), but more come to our shores than any other.
Strange is it not, that the poorest of the poor and most oppressed of the oppressed come to our shores, even as their "betters" mock our mistakes, laugh at our admissions, and rail against our "hidden agendas".
Guess they did not get the memo.
Pons Asinorum wrote:It is called war, and there are no such things as white hats. (Re what a few exhausted men in the field did: note they did not kill a single human being, but rather committed symbolic acts of barbarity.
Pons Asinorum wrote:Of course there is more than a single wrong here, but where I disagree is that IMO the agendas are transparent, period. I think they are only hidden to the foolish and many abroad have been played (especially those yelling the most that they "know" things). This is exactly the Enemy I speak of (and note their use of ignorance as a weapon) , but respectfully, I do on think you get it Fox (my bad, as my writing skills have fallen well short of the mark).
Pons Asinorum wrote:We will always be despised by our Enemy, there is absolutism ZERO possibility of peace. They will never say good things about us, they will never embrace us as friends or even acknowledge us as benign strangers. They will always oppose us.
Pons Asinorum wrote:Our Enemy disagrees and since both ways of life are mutually exclusive, we are in a fight for our survival.
Pons Asinorum wrote:We are not the problem, rather we are fighting the problem -- and we have no choice.
Fighting sucks, but we will either fight or perish, there is no middle ground. If we choose to equivocate, then we lose for certain. Then the lights will go out for a long, long time. Then we will know the true nature of hunger and power again, and I'm betting that we will not like it.
Pons Asinorum wrote:Human history is long and dark; I think you know this to be true Fox. It is occasionally punctuated by the bright flames of rare enlightened civilizations, but they never last. As they are extinguished by the Enemy (internal and external), all they can do is send a spark or two forward into the future, in the belief that maybe Hope will be reborn anew.
Today, we fight that same Enemy for the exact same reasons (today, they are winning, as their biggest weapon is ignorance and they have wielded it quiet skillfully, here and abroad).
If we perish, maybe we can send some of our best ideals into the future, to seed a new enlighten civilization.
If we succeed, maybe the world will light-up, as the last remnants of darkness recede into shadow.
Mercury wrote:Giving classified papers out to be leaked which can cause severe danger to men and women in uniform is wrong. It does not matter how one feels about wars in general, but about the safety of our troops.
I know many veterans who have served in combat and are for peace. They are some of the most anti-war people you would ever meet. But they would agree that these actions are not good at all.
The Title of the thread says it all in my book.
(Yes, this is a hot button issue for me!)
Foxlike Mulder wrote:Both US military and private US operations (Blackwater) have been responsible for thousands of civilian deaths, and not just the accidental ones by drone bombings.
Pons Asinorum wrote:Interesting Fox (and I have learned to expect nothing less from you), but I think we are in considerable disagreement. We are also, all over the map .
Pons Asinorum wrote:Re the Enemy:
Maybe the most we disagree on is the nature of the Enemy, as you suggest.
I see an Enemy that is multifaceted with only a few genuine axes, among which are those that seek to empower the banks and corporations over our lives as a means to restore centralized power.
In other words, I do not see the banks and corporations as the enemy, rather I see them as levers used by the Enemy to force people to cede more control over their own lives, families, children -- to increasingly erode the codification of our Rights in the Constitution and return to the old world order (aka: the new world order).
Pons Asinorum wrote:Re something that really disturbs me and maybe you can help me correct my misunderstanding:Foxlike Mulder wrote:Both US military and private US operations (Blackwater) have been responsible for thousands of civilian deaths, and not just the accidental ones by drone bombings.
The US military has not murdered thousand of civilians and any implication to the contrary is my own misunderstanding regarding your statement, is that correct?
Mercury wrote:Military life is also complex and there are a few bad elements in it like all of society. We condemn an entire peoples for the acts of a few.
We are lucky to live in the USA. One is considered living in poverty if they don't have a microwave oven or a fridge. In many other areas, they don't have clean water to drink or barely get a cup of rice a day.
Yes, I am very passionate about many things. I am passionate about the military because I did serve in it and met many good people.
Mercury wrote:There is a reality outside of the USA very few here are aware of. They get all of their information from opinionated fringe sites that do not really analyze what is going on or the history behind it. The main reason is because it is complicated. We are so used to 30 second soundbites to explain everything going on that we zap the channels when someone actually decides to answer a question.
We have people running for the highest office of the land just throwing red meat to their constituents and giving one minute answers to complex problems. There is no debates anymore, just name calling. If a candidate actually spent a good 15 minutes discussing a complex issue, he or she would never make it in today's world of politics.
The Middle East is one of the most complex issues we have going on. It is not that simple to just go to war or drop a nuke on them.
Pons Asinorum wrote:Whew, much better Fox. For a moment I thought you were lost.
Pons Asinorum wrote:The sources of your sources (what I call an echo chamber) are of course hardly objective. They have a vested interest in their agenda and are not concerned with verification via empirical evidence.
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